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From: misrael@scripps.edu (Mark Israel)
Subject: Re: Stressed schwa
Message-ID: <misraelDvL3py.29z@netcom.com>
Sender: misrael@netcom14.netcom.com
Organization: The Scripps Research Institute, La Jolla, California, USA
References: <3201C38E.7D97@eurocontrol.fr> <4tu3mu$ej7@riscsm.scripps.edu> <rdd-0308961643190001@dmn1-19.usa1.com>
Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 22:56:22 GMT
Lines: 52

In article <rdd-0308961643190001@dmn1-19.usa1.com>, rdd@usa1.com (Aaron J. Dinkin) writes:

> The vowel I use in such words as "fun" is the IPA "turned a",

   I think not.  _Phonetic Symbol Guide_ says that [<turned a>]
is "rather rare in practice", and is "illustrated by the unstressed
short open final syllable in British English words such as _sofa_".
This is a different sound from the one in "fun".

> which can only be represented by [V"] in the ASCII IPA. 

   I would rather say that [<turned a>] *cannot* be represented in
ASCII IPA, and would invent a new notation if I felt a need for that
"rather rare" symbol.

> I believed, for all this time, that RP speakers pronounced "fun"
> differently than I did, and now I find out that they pronounce it the
> same, but use a character that represents a different vowel. Therefore, I
> believe the question is not why I use [V"] where I mean [V], but why you
> use [V] where you mean [V"].

   We don't mean [V"].  [V"]=[<reversed epsilon>] was introduced into 
the IPA *specifically* to represent the vowel in RP "fern", and that
is what it *does* represent.

   You do seem to be right that by using [V]=[<turned v>] for the vowel 
in RP "fun", we are using it for something other than Cardinal 14.  
I don't know why this occurred.  In my FAQ, I merely follow the IPA
transcriptions in British dictionaries (specifically, Collins English
Dictionary).

> Question: how do you represent the back central lax unrounded vowel?

   Isn't "back central" a contradiction in terms?

> ATTENTION: henceforward I shall use the ASCII character V to represent the
> phone represented in the IPA by "turned a", rather than "turned v" as it
> is in the system devised by Evan Kirschenbaum.

   I wish you would join the rest of us, and use [<turned v>] in 
IPA -- and hence [V] in ASCII IPA -- to represent the vowel in RP 
"fun", and never mind that it isn't Cardinal 14.

> Thank you for clearing this up for me, Mark, but please answer the
> questions I've posed.

   I'm not a phonetician.  In my FAQ I attempt to introduce Evan's
scheme to beginners, but advanced questions like yours would be
better answered by a phonetician.

--
misrael@scripps.edu			Mark Israel
