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From: hinsenk@cyclone.ERE.UMontreal.CA (Hinsen Konrad)
Subject: Re: Languages in the EC
In-Reply-To: philip@storcomp.demon.co.uk's message of Fri, 3 Feb 1995 17:47:14 +0000
Message-ID: <HINSENK.95Feb5111156@cyclone.ERE.UMontreal.CA>
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References: <3fdf8r$gqe@nic.lth.se> <3feev2$4df@news.INbe.net>
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	<791833634snz@storcomp.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 5 Feb 1995 16:11:56 GMT
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In article <791833634snz@storcomp.demon.co.uk> philip@storcomp.demon.co.uk (Phil Hunt) writes:

   For most purposes a cursory knowledge is enough. In any case, many

I don't know what purposes you are thinking about. If the EU ever wants
to become a political entity, which includes e.g. having paneuropean 
political parties with members from all member countries, then it must
first make sure that its citizens can communicate with each other
at more than a mere tourist survival level. People must be able to
discuss all the subjects with other Europeans that they discuss with
their neighbours and friends. People must also have sufficient language
capabilities to sign contracts with business partners from other
countries. Otherwise the EU will remain what it is today: a union
of governments.

   people don't know their native language all that well: they have a
   small vocabulary and mis-use words. 

And many will make similar mistakes in an international language. It will
work for them as well as theuir nativa language does.

   You seem to think of "France", "Germany" etc as single monolithic entities
   with one mind; I disagree. If you had said "the French government",
   "the German government" etc I would be more inclined to agree with you.

That's of course what I meant, because decisions in the EU are still taken
by governments.

   governments of the member states: whether there is to be a common EU 
   second language, and if so what it is should be decided by an EU-wide 
   referendum, using STV.

In my opinion, a referendum is not a good way to decide this question,
or for that matter any question that affects future generations.
The majority of people does not think about anything but their current
personal interests.

   A Frenchman might well prefer English to Esperanto, particularly if he
   knew some English; even if he did not speak English, he already knows
   many English words because English and French are quite similar.

That's exactly what I mean. People would vote on the basis of their
own language abilities. They would not care (or even think about) what
the decision means for the children and future generations. The Frenchman
who knows some English and therefore votes for English will create
a situation that requires future generations in France to spend an
enormous amount of time to learn English much better than he did
himself, since after a universal acception knowledge of English would
soon be obligatory. At the same time, children in England can safely
stop learning any foreign languages at all and use their time to
study more productive things, giving them a huge advantage on the
then-existing international job market.

   > In my opinion, neutrality is even more important than easy learning.

   So you would prefer Japanese to English as a common EU language?

Indeed. After some generations, Europe would have created its proper
dialect of Japanese, without many of the complications imposed by
Japanese culture. Europe would probably also get rid of the Japanese
writing system, since Europeans don't have the traditional attachment
to it that the Japanese have. In the long run, Japanese would work
better than English.

   To any English-speaking person with *no konwledge of French at all* the
   word "hopital" is immediately comprehensible. Even more so a French 

True, but how much does this help in communication? Probably not at all.
It helps to recognise hospitals, but that could also be achieved by
inventing a commonly used sign to mark hospitals. It would not even
help to speak about hospitals, since it is not at all clear how
to *construct* the French word from the English one. And even if you
could find rules for that, you still wouldn't know how to pronounce it.

   > That Esperanto is easy to learn is a fact that everyone can
   > find out for themselves with little effort. 

   I don't argue that it isn't easy to learn, but that it would be possible
   to construct a language even easier to learn.

That may or may not be true. In any case, it will take a few decades
to try. Go ahead.

   European languages share a common culture and therefore in many cases 
   have quite similar vocabularies. In particular English, French and 
   Italian have a lot of words which are the same (or recognisably similar),
   and any common EU language should use this vocabulary.

French, Italian, and Spanish share a common ancestor and are therefore
similar. English has imported many words from French, which makes its
vocabulary somewhat similar, although the most commonly used words
are of Germanic origin. But the other European languages don't share
this common vocabulary. They use latin-derived words mostly for technical
terms, and this can even lead to confusion when learning any of the
above-mentioned languages.

Therefore I doubt that you can construct a language in which the majority
of words is familiar to *all* Europeans (and I would not even insist
that you include the Finns, whose language is completely different).
And even if you could, that would help only in the acquisitin of a
passive knowledge.

--
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