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From: dfb@bbs.cruzio.com
Subject: Re: Naturalismo e schematicismo, un problema in linguas auxiliar
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Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 16:39:21 GMT
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In article <5cprml$h3v@lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk>, etg10@cl.cam.ac.uk (Edmund Grimley-Evans) writes:
> |> Someone has just pointed out that, whether we like it or not,
> |> English is by far the nearest thing to a world language right
> |> now.
> 
> Maybe. But it's not fulfilling the requirements of those who
> want a neutral international language. A neutral international
> language means an alternative to "world languages"; it does
> not mean the hegemony of a "world language".

All I said was that English is the world language. I didn't say
it is neutral, or that it's the best possible world language,
or that it would be your choice or mine as the world language.


> 
> |> That's why I suggest that IALs should get their vocabulary
> |> from English, if they want a chance at becoming a universal
> |> 2nd language.
> 
> Even if I accepted your premise, I don't see how this would follow.
> You can't get English's "successs" just by imitating its vocabulary.

I suggest that that is how you can get them, if they can be gotten
at all.

This has been explained by others, on AUXLANG. English is the
2nd language of choice. The better IAL proposals have extremely
simple grammar, and so that studying them is mostly a matter of
studying their vocabularly. Say you want to learn English, as so
many people obviously do. Then, if you study an IAL, with a simple
grammar, and a vocabulary derived entirely from English, you're
studying English. You can study the existing world language, English,
while studying that IAL. Of course English's grammatical & spelling
irregularities will be more work, but the point is tht the time
that you spend studying that IAL's vocabulary applies directly
to the study of English. Even if you have litle expectation that
the IAL will be useful, even if English is the only language
whose usefulness you have confidence in, you won't feel that your
time is wasted when studying the vocabulary of that IAL, because
you're learning English vocabulary.

Of course, additionally, the fact that the IAL would be extremely
easy for English speakers could mean that many would learn it, meaning
that your goal, being able to talk to English-speakers, could, to a
large extent, be met before you even got to studying English grammar
& spelling.

The point being that that English-vocabulary IAL would be much
more appealing to the person who wants to learn English than would
an IAL with a different vocabulary.

> 
> |> There's much agreement among IAL advocates that the search for
> |> the best IAL proposal isn't over.
> 
> Not true. You get a false impression by watching e-mail discussions,
> I think.

Depends on what you mean by "much". Not all IAL advocates are E-ists.
Maybe non-E-ists are fewer, among IAL advocates, but they're
significant in number.

> 
> |> Even the most successful IAL
> |> project hasn't come close to universality. When one approach
> |> doesn't work, you try another.
> 
> Yes, but not at random. You try to gain some understanding.
> Or, at least, I do.

Who said anything about "random"?? You try to determine what will
be most successful.

> 
> |> When the customer doesn't buy
> |> one project, you offer her/him another.
> 
> Ha ha ha.

Or you keep offering the same thing, and the product that hasn't
succeeded in a century will still be un-sold after an additional
century. Shall we wait a millenium for E-o to gain some universality
before we try other possibilities?

By the way, I agree that E-o grammar is very good, and all it
needs is a more winnable vocabulary, especially an all English-derived
one.

A possibly more winnable possibility would be a Regularized English.

> 
> |>  The main thing is to actually have a genuine
> |> universal 2nd language, whether or not it's neutral.
> 
> This "customer" disagrees completely.

Fine, but all the millions who study English, instead of
E-o, as their 2nd language agree that they don't want fairness,
they don't want neutrality--they want English.

> 
> |>  But I feel English would
> |> be the most winnable, with a world public that wants to
> |> study English. 
> 
> Why don't you do some "market research" then and see if anyone else
> on the planet other than Mike Ossipoff is the slightest bit
> interested in Mike Ossipoff's modified English? If they are, start

First of all, Mike Ossipoff doesn't have a "modified English"
I don't know whether or not an adequate Regularized English has
been written; I haven't written one. My other proposal is E-o,
with all English-derived vocabulary. Actually there _is_ market
research, in the form of statistics on people's choice of 2nd
language, and it indicates that people want to learn English.
I've explained why that means that Angla-Esperanto would have
a much better chance with those people than traditional E-o,
which most people don't seem to have "the slightest bit of
initerest in".

We can quibble about what other proposal will succeed, but what
we do know for sure is that traditional E-o hasn't succeeded
in a century.

> "selling". You might want to try Multi-Level Marketing. You could
> spam all the news groups or something ...

This is an example of the careless rudeness that's found so frequently
when E-ists hear proposals of other IALs. I'm certainly not saying
that all E-ists are like this one, but there are enough like that
to badly tarnish E-o's reputation as the language of peace &
tolerance & mutual understanding :-)

