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From: markrose@spss.com (Mark Rosenfelder)
Subject: Re: Chinese (was: ESPERANTO - SPAM ^ 6)
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References: <donhD3v8EG.275@netcom.com> <donhD9v1K3.F72@netcom.com> <D9v555.DB0@spss.com> <donhD9yzxv.9s9@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 1995 18:35:11 GMT
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In article <donhD9yzxv.9s9@netcom.com>, Don HARLOW <donh@netcom.com> wrote:
>markrose@spss.com (Mark Rosenfelder) skribis en lastatempa afisxo <D9v555.DB0@spss.com>:
>>In article <donhD9v1K3.F72@netcom.com>, Don HARLOW <donh@netcom.com> wrote:
>>>The number of speakers of _putonghua_ (Mandarin Chinese, or more 
>>>specifically the variant of it used as a national language in China) 
>>>number on the order of one billion.
>>
>>The combination of extreme skepticism regarding anything relating to 
>>English with extreme credulity regarding anything related to Chinese
>>doesn't make for a very good effect, here.
>>
>The information about Chinese comes from friends of mine from that 
>country (not all of whom speak Mandarin as a native tongue -- my best 
>friend, who gave me the percentages, is a native Shanghainese speaker, 
>who occasionally gets ticked off that, in this country, she won't be 
>considered for jobs that require a speaker of Mandarin even though she 
>speaks it as well as a native of Beijing). 

Anecdotal evidence, then.  Even before this exchange you might have asked
yourself how representative a sample you were dealing with.  China is
still up to 80% rural, for instance: are three quarters of your Chinese
friends peasants?  Are the urban ones representative of all urban Chinese?

John DeFrancis (_The Chinese Language: Fact and Fantasy_, p. 231f) writes:

 "In the educational system the norm [pu3tong1hua4] is the official medium
  of instruction, but the dearth of competent teachers in full command of
  the standard language, plus perhaps the deliberate attempt to preserve the
  regionalects..., means that the extent to which Putonghua is used in 
  classroom instruction in regionalect areas and the actual results of such
  education throughout the country are quite uneven.   ...the linguist 
  Wang Li [complains] that many students, especially those in teachers'
  colleges, do not speak Putonghua well and, moreover, that the teaching of
  Putonghua is so deemphasized after the early grades that students forget
  how to speak it."

It's worth pausing here to reflect on that: though it's widely taught,
pu3tong1hua4 is also widely *forgotten*.  And if the *teachers* have
trouble with it, what about the students?

 "Zhou Youguang has noted that teachers of language and literature are
  required to use Putonghua though, he adds, 'most of them cannot do so well.'
  Teachers of other subjects, such as mathematics, are not required to use
  Putonghua.  Consequently they usually resort to their own native speech
  to explain the material in the texts, which are, of course, written in
  characters based on the official standard language but generally read with
  local pronunciations.  In general, middle school students understand
  Putonghua but are not necessarily able to speak it.  In most regions
  store and sales personnel do not speak Putonghua."

>>You seem to believe that intensive national education in English in 
>>Japan is almost completely unsuccessful, while national education in
>>putonghua(*) in China is completely successful.  How could that be?
>>If Japanese education is so stunningly inferior to Chinese, how is it
>>that literacy in Japan is much higher than in China?
>>
>You might make a distinction between a subject one learns in school 
>without any real motivation (English in both Japan and China) and a 
>subject that is needed to communicate within one's own society... 

I might make such a distinction if it were shown to be relevant here.
The citation above shows that even shop clerks generally don't speak
pu3tong1hua4.   If people who *could* find it useful don't use it,
how is it "needed to communicate"?  

A Chinese friend of mine initially agreed with you that everyone in China
spoke pu3tong1hua4; then amended that to all "educated people".  A
significant correction: if we take "educated" in a minimal sense, as meaning 
able to read and write, the number of educated people in China is fairly
low.  That children may be taught pu3tong1hua4 or writing in school is
not conclusive; they can forget either.  A follow-up study of a literacy
campaign in Shanxi, where 34000 peasants had been given instruction in
reading, found that 1/3 had become illiterate again, and the other 2/3
were unable to read newspapers.  (DeFrancis p. 209)

It's also worth noting that although the Mandarin regionalect (to use 
DeFrancis's term) is the largest in the world, with over 800 million
speakers, it is at least as varied as English, and the differences 
between Mandarin dialects are "more marked... than is usually admitted",
as linguist Paul Serruys notes.  Educated Mandarin speakers can understand
each other; peasants from different parts of the Mandarin area may or
may not.
