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From: deb5@ellis.uchicago.edu (Daniel von Brighoff)
Subject: Re: "Sie" in german
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Date: Sat, 10 Jun 1995 18:26:59 GMT
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In article <3r33a8$dg8@agate.berkeley.edu>,
Coby (Jacob) Lubliner <coby@euler.Berkeley.EDU> wrote:

>As far as I know, German is the only language that uses the 3rd
>person plural as the polite form.  Until the 18th century the
>2nd person plural (Ihr) was commonly used, as it was in most other
>European languages, with some special forms for particularly
>illustrious personages.

Other posters have commented that "Er/Sie" (3rd singular) was used
as a term of address as well.  Read von Hofmannsthal (Der 
Rosenkavalier, for instance) and you'll find all four forms (2nd sing., 
2nd plural, 3rd sing., 3rd plural) used.  I'm still vague on what the
exact nuances of each form are.  "Er/Sie" seems to be superior ->
inferior (e.g. to servants; cf. Woyzeck), "Ihr" the converse, "Du"
informal between equals and "Sie" (plural) formal between equals,
but I'm not sure when this system was actually used, if ever.  Lessing
and other earlier authors often use formal terms ("Ihro Gnade") that
sound quite bizarre to me.
>
>Since then most languages (except French, Russian, Serbocroat and a
>few others) have made changes.  Italian uses the 3rd person feminine
>singular (Lei); Mussolini tried to bring back "voi" (which you commonly 
>hear in operas) but didn't succeed.  Spanish has adopted "usted";
>the old "vos" has become the _familiar_ singular form in
>some parts of Spanish America (also, "ustedes" is both the familiar
>and the polite plural in Spanish America).  Portuguese has the 
>similar "voce", which in turn has become the familiar form in Brazil;
>the polite form there is "o senhor/a senhora", which is a super-polite
>form in Potugal.  Similar forms (meaning "the gentleman/the lady")
>exist in some Slavic languages, e.g. Polish.

There's also been an attempt to bring back the "vos" form in Catalan,
but it sounds quite formal.  (One man I used it with told me "It sounds
like I'm talking to an archbishop!")  I suppose "vost`e" (parallel to
Usted) has pretty much replaced it. 

One phenomenon common to most European languages is the growth of "duzen/
tutear/tutoyer/etc.", i.e. the use of the informal forms.  For example,
when I was learning Welsh, my tutor told me it was okay to learn the
"chwi" form (2nd plural and polite), but that I would probably never en-
countre anyone who would use it with me.  This may be an anamolous situation
because of the degree of solidarity felt by Welsh speakers.

However, solidarity was the argument for why it is used so often in
Germany.  All students, regardless of age, "duzen" each other and the
employees of business that cater primarily to student often used the
informal with their customers.  I've heard that a similar situation
obtains in the Romance-speaking countries.  Eco makes mention of this
in _Foucault's Pendulum_ when introducing the main characters to each 
other.  In Spain, the mother of a friend of mine was shocked to hear
the employee of a Madrid department store "tutea" her; "You've never
even been to my house!" she retorted.


-- 
	 Daniel "Da" von Brighoff    /\          Dilettanten
	(deb5@midway.uchicago.edu)  /__\         erhebt Euch
				   /____\      gegen die Kunst!
