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From: deb5@ellis.uchicago.edu (Daniel von Brighoff)
Subject: Re: Language Extinction
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References: <3ih1ho$rne@fang.dsto.gov.au> <540276879wnr@shappski.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 1995 06:40:55 GMT
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In article <540276879wnr@shappski.demon.co.uk>,
Andre Shapps <andre@shappski.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article: <3ih1ho$rne@fang.dsto.gov.au>  elefther@eod.mrl.dsto.gov.au writes:
>> It is sad that many languages are dying out but given
>> other pressing problems such as hunger, destruction
>> of forests, economy etc. which affect peoples lives, what
>> country or organisation would be willing to divert money and
>> resources to document grammar, syntax and vocabulary for
>> possible future reference. 
>
>You are quite right I think, but I don't know that life has much value 
>when divorced from culture.
[rest deleted]

I strongly disagree with this.  First of all, the people we are talking
about are not outside of culture.  In most cases, they are assimilating
into a dominant culture (and more often than not, altering that culture
in the process).  As any Spaniard can tell you, a Basque who gives up
Euskara for Castellano does not automatically become a Castillian.  And
the modern culture of the Basque Country may have more in common with 
modern Spanish than traditional Basque culture, but it is by no means 
identical.

Second of all, I think many here are ascribing to some mystical view of
culture and language.  Yes, humanity is impoverished when a certain
people give up certain modes of speaking and acting, but it's not like
this means that their descendents will be forever at a disadvantage.
The useful elements will be passed on, just as they were for others.
As a fifth-generation Irish-American, am I indelibly impoverished
because I speak no Gaelic (well, a copla focail) and never eat 
cabbage?  On the other hand, I read Chinese and eat Thai, something
my ancestors (who probably couldn't read at all) couldn't even have
imagined.

More importantly, I have the leisure and the opportunity to learn
Gaelic if I so choose, and this is what I find most objectionable
about Mr. Shapps' post:  his insinuation (please forgive me if I
have misunderstood you, sir) that it would be better for someone to
live in indigence and ignorance but retain her culture than be
well-fed and well-educated but lose it.  The notion of "progress" has
received a mighty beating this century, but I still champion the
cause.

I think all the posters have basically been in agreement that the
Best of All Possible Worlds (tm) would be one in which people could
keep what they have and supplement it with useful innovations (e.g.
send Cree on the Internet) and I'm no exception.  To a certain
degree this isn't possible--look at the immense loss in vocabulary
and folklore related to agriculture and husbandry that English and
her speakers have lost, for example, simply because the methods have 
changed so completely.  As much as I regret this loss, I'm much happier 
with the result that the state of Kansas produces enough wheat to 
feed all of the former USSR.

Similarly, it pains me to hear that native cultures are dying by
the thousands as young people migrate to the cities and assimilate 
to the dominant culture.  But if, on the other hand, it means that
their lifespans are tripled and their infant mortality rate tenthed,
I'll swallow my tears.  The real tragedy is when neither happens,
when people lose their culture and end up no better off.  As much as
I'd like to Yanomani and Frisian spoken into the year 3000, I'd rather
see everyone have room to live and enough to eat, even if they all 
only speak Esperanto.  If governments and individuals are only willing 
to make a limited amount of funds available to help these peoples, I'd 
rather see it go somewhere else than linguistic preservation.  The 
languages that survive the transition will be much better-equipped to 
survive in the long-term.

The bright side:  We lost Taino, but we gained Haitien.  We lost Yiddish
and gained Yinglish.  We lost Gaulish and acquired French (okay, that
last one is kind of a lame example. ^_^).


-- 
	 Daniel "Da" von Brighoff    /\          Dilettanten
	(deb5@midway.uchicago.edu)  /__\         erhebt Euch
				   /____\      gegen die Kunst!
