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From: sslyjim@ucl.ac.uk (Mr Jim Tyson)
Subject: Re: Norewgian (and Swedish) vowels
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Message-ID: <1994Nov15.114613.27901@ucl.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 11:46:13 GMT
References: <HFI9AB.94Nov4153258@vkhdib01.hda.hydro.com> <39g2dq$34v@ugle.unit.no> <HFI9AB.94Nov8184430@vkhdib01.hda.hydro.com>
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In article <HFI9AB.94Nov8184430@vkhdib01.hda.hydro.com> hfi9ab@vkhdib01.hda.hydro.com (Anders Blehr) writes:
>Jardar Eggesb Abrahamsen writes:
>
>   Norwegian /u/ is IPA [Y], only more rounded, while /y/ is IPA [y], only 
>   less rounded. [...]
>
>The problem is that French [u] and Norwegian [y] cannot both be IPA
>[y].  Or, if they are, IPA must be more concerned with how vowels are
>formed than with their quality.  Vowels that have almost the same
>quality may be formed differently, and vowels having different
>qualities (e.g., Norw. [y] and French [u]) may be formed almost the
>same way.
>
Many a slip between phoneme and phone!  There is no "French" [u] but a
French /u/, no "Norwegian" [y] but a Norwegian /y/.  Since the /u/ and
/y/ are _phonemes_ and not phones they only approximate to their IPA
homographs.  Since variation is rife in most languages it is unlikely 
that there can be any one to one relation between phonemic and phonetic
systems of transcription.  I have no idea whether "standard" French /u/
is for most speakers closer to IPA [Y] or [y] but since it will vary from
speaker to speaker and context to context I can see no reason not to
use either symbol systematically to represent the phonological system of
standard French.

>Anyway, vowels form a continuum, and it is thus impossible to design a
>set of symbols representing every possible vowel sound...
>

Exactly.

>- Anders.

Jim

