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From: tanaka@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu (TANAKA Tomoyuki)
Subject: Re: Name order issue (was Re: a ...  a KOTOWAZA file)
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References: <Cx4BMr.9E5@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> <MURATA.94Oct5213735@trane.wrc.xerox.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Oct 1994 20:43:23 GMT
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Xref: glinda.oz.cs.cmu.edu sci.lang.japan:19276 sci.lang:31876

In article <...> murata@trane.wrc.xerox.com
(makoto murata trane 0128-29e) writes:
> ...

i have two responses to Mr Murata:

(1) please consider writing your family name in all capitals, as:
		MURATA Makoto
	i explain this idea below.

(2) i can't tell if you realize this: when you write your name as 
     		> Murata, Makoto
	the comma indicates that the name is reversed from its
	original order.  that is, the real name is "Makoto
	Murata".  commas are often used this way in indexes:
	"Bach, J.S.", "abstraction, levels of", ... .


--------------------------------------------------------------------
i have stored some articles on "notation of Japanese names in
Roman alphabet" in my archive (WWW) site.
	URL: http://bronze.ucs.indiana.edu/~tanaka/japanese_names
(do "finger tanaka@silver.ucs.indiana.edu" for access information.)

here are the files in the page:

     * Tanaka: summary on name order and capitalization (90 lines) 
     * Tanaka: examples of the changing trend (120 lines) 
     * Tanaka: booklet "Asian Pacific Americans" on Japanese name order
       (70 lines) 
       
   Use of "-san" in English:
     * Tanaka: summary on use of "-san" in English (60 lines) 
     * Tanaka: example of inappropriate use of "-san" ("Tanaka-san"
       bullshit) (150 lines) 
     * Julie HEATH: comments (50 lines) 
     * Per Aarne FRITZON: comments (50 lines) 
       
   Call for submission, especially objections 

--------------------------------------------------------------------
i'll attach the following 3 files below:
    ((1)) Tanaka: summary on name order and capitalization (90 lines) 
    ((2)) Tanaka: examples of the changing trend (120 lines) 
    ((3)) Call for submission, especially objections 

====================================================================
((1)) Tanaka: summary on name order and capitalization (90 lines) 

Newsgroups: sci.lang,soc.culture.french
Followup-To: sci.lang
Date:    Wed, 10 Aug 94 01:19:17 GMT
From:    tanaka@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu (TANAKA Tomoyuki)
Subject: Re: name schemes of the world

(slightly edited after posting)


thank you for those who responded to my queries
--- Subject: name schemes of the world          (sci.lang)
--- Subject: capitalization of names in France  (soc.culture.french)

briefly, here is the main reason i'm interested in the subject.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
(1) preserving the original name order.

in most Asian countries (including Japan, China, and Korea) the
family names come before the given names.  but most Japanese and
some Chinese and Koreans reverse the names when they go to the
west (as "Yoko Ono", etc), because that is more common, and to
avoid confusion.

        preserving the original name order in English text
        is the default for people from mainland China (PRC)
                Mao Tse-tung, Chou En-lai, Li Peng
        Vietnam
                Ho Chi Minh, Nguen Van Thieu, Pham Van Dong
        and North Korea (Kim Il Sung),
        and it is also common for people from Taiwan (ROC)
        (Chiang Kai-shek) and South Korea (Rho Tae Woo, Chun Doo Hwan).
        
        in the English-language media these names have been used in
        their original order for decades.  i believe that this fact
        proves that there is nothing intrinsicly natural about the
        "given-name family-name" order in the English language.
        (i.e., it is NOT part of English grammer.)
        
	this practice (of preserving the original name order in
	English text) is growing for Japanese names as well.

the principle behind it is also, "When Rome do as the Romans do." 
that's a pretty good principle, but it doesn't apply in this
case of names, for the following reason.

when i write a scientific paper or a USENET article, i write in
English so that all peoples of the world can read it, not just
westerners.  i'm directing my words at the Chinese and the
Koreans in the world as much as to the Germans, the French, and
the Kenyans.  so i can not possibly be fair to all of my
readers by reordering my name.

therefore, we are arguing that in an international context
(academia, UN, or USENET), everyone should preserve the original
order of their names (Asians and non-Asians).
        (The order of Western names is already preserved in
        Asian countries, at least in Japan and China (PRC).
        please let me know if there is a country in Asia or
        anywhere else where Western names are reordered.)

--------------------------------------------------------------------
(2) capitalization

we are also suggesting that, perhaps it is a good idea to write
the family name in all capitals whenever there is a possibility
of confusion, like the first time the name appears.
        (and that way of capitalization to specify the family
        name is not so unusual --- many French-speaking people
        do it (see soc.culture.french), some Esperantists do it
        (see soc.culture.esperanto).  it's also common in the
        U.S. military and phone books.)

i was thinking that if in some cultures the name schemes are so
different from the two-component system (family name and given
name) that it is impossible to re-order a two-component name to
adjust it to the local convention, then it would provide an
additional argument to our proposal.

i think information i received (thanks again) provides support
for this argument.

tomoyuki

;;; (Mr.) TANAKA Tomoyuki   (Tanaka is my family name.)
;;;
;;; e-mail address: <tanaka@indiana.edu>

====================================================================
((2)) Tanaka: examples of the changing trend (120 lines) 

Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan,soc.culture.japan,alt.usage.english
Date:    Fri, 05 Aug 94 16:52:52 GMT
From:    tanaka@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu (TANAKA Tomoyuki)
Subject: Re: Japanese names in Roman alphabet

(slightly edited after posting)

let me elaborate on what i wrote.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
re: capitalization.

>       "Jean-Pierre RAMPAL"
> when i was in Paris several years ago, i saw this way of
> capitalization a lot.  e.g., all the TV shows gave credits this
> way.  this was common also in denoting the artists' names for
> modern paintings (esp. in connection with an organization called
> S.P.A.D.E.M.).  i think i saw some use in Germany, Austria,
> Switzerland, and England, so i assumed it was common all over
> Europe.
> 
> i'm told that it is common in the U.S. military.
> the local (Indiana Bell) and school telephone books here
> also denote names this way.

i have only one CD from Europe.
it's from France, and names are denoted as follows:
        Johann Sebastian BACH
        Robert VEYRON-LACROIX

when this form of capitalization becomes more widespread,
i'll be able to remove "(Tanaka is my family name.)" from my
signature.

(Some people later told me that this form of capitalization is
very common in the French-speaking world (see soc.culture.french).
Esperantists do it too (see soc.culture.esperanto),
and some other parts of Europe.  It is not common in Sweden.)

--------------------------------------------------------------------
re: preserving the original name order.

this practice (of preserving the original name order in English
text) is growing for Japanese names as well.  examples.

in Japan:
--- this summer i saw more and more pop singers denoting their
        names as "Tanaka Tomoyuki" or "tanaka tomoyuki" in
        posters, ads, etc.
--- there is at least one English-language newspaper that denote
        names this way.  (what's the name of the paper?)
--- a weekly (or bi-weekly) English-language magazine
        on pop signers and TV personalities named "Ai".
--- Prof Charles Douglas Lummis publishes books in parallel text
        format (Japanese and English).
--- journalist HONDA Katuiti has been writing about this for
        nearly two decades.
--- some recent books, such as "EIGO SIHAI ENO IRON"
        (opposition to the domination of the English language),
        discuss the matter.
--- i think there was a debate in newspapers about this
        (name reversing) a couple of years ago.
--- notation of "TANAKA, Tomoyuki" (with a comma) is becoming
        more common.  this can been seen as a compromise for the
        current transitional period.
--- in the Japanese FJ groups (JUNET).
--- some Japanese Esperantists recommend it.
--- (indirectly related) in a Japanese computer company i used
        to work at, there were several Tanakas.  so my username
        was "tanakat".  another person's username was "tanakah".
        there were also "suzukik" and "shimizus".  usernames
        were systematically allocated this way.

in the USA:
--- i believe in academia it is common practice to preserve
        the original order for novelists and historical(?) figures,
        e.g., Natsume Souseki.
--- books that deal with Japan often follow this convention:
        Ienaga Saburou "The pacific war", John Dower "War
        without mercy" --- but not "Manga! Manga!".
--- the booklet "Asian Pacific Americans" was (i assume)
        distributed to the journalists, TV stations, etc. all
        over USA.  (the booklet is not militant or blatant;
        the editorial policy is in very good taste.)
--- the in-flight magazine of United Airlines (is the name
        "WINDS"?) is in Japanese, and by-lines give names of
        authors of the articles in Roman alphabet consistently
        as "TANAKA Tomoyuki".
--- "The impoverished spirit in contemporary Japan: selected
        essays of Honda Katsuichi" edited by John Lie.
        New York: Monthly Review Press.  1993.
        cloth $34.  paperback $16.
--- the magazine "Mangajin".

elsewhere:
--- excellent book read all over the world, Karel van Wolferen's
        "The enigma of Japanese power".  (first published in London)
--- Ian Buruma.  "A Japanese mirror: heroes and villains of Japanese
        culture".  Jonathan Cape, London, 1984.
--- Maruyama's "Denken in Japan", Suhrkamp Verlag, 1988.
        (in German) (everywhere except on the cover)
--- on USENET

(please tell me about more examples by e-mail.)

it is a clear trend.  i'm trying to accelerate it.
you can help by using
(1) the "preserve the original name order" rule, and/or
(2) the capitalization scheme (for Asian or non-Asian names).


;;; (Mr.) TANAKA Tomoyuki   (Tanaka is my family name.)
;;;
;;; e-mail address: <tanaka@indiana.edu>

====================================================================
((3)) Call for submission, especially objections 

--------------------------------------------------------------------
  call for submission, especially objections
--------------------------------------------------------------------

so i have collected some articles regarding notation of Japanese
names in Roman alphabet.  in particular about
--- name order
--- capitalization
--- use of "-san" in English

re: name order
i do see that it's troublesome to change existing conventions,
but maybe it's not even as troublesome as i used to think.  when
the Chinese government decided to change the Roman-alphabet
spelling of the names of cities several years ago, for example,
from "Peking" to "Beijing", the English-language press had
little trouble adjusting to it.

re: "-san"
one good point made (i think) by a couple of people was that
USENET is very casual, and norms of politeless are different
from the more traditional paper-based media.  that's very true,
but it does not reduce the offensiveness of derisive use of
"-san" in any way, i don't think.

i welcome any well-written articles to be added to this site,
especially objections to the points we have been making.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

;;; (Mr.) TANAKA Tomoyuki   (Tanaka is my family name.)
;;;
;;; Tanaka's archive site: http://bronze.ucs.indiana.edu/~tanaka
;;; e-mail address: <tanaka@indiana.edu>
