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From: chris@bris.ac.uk (Chris Railton)
Subject: Re: Physics of Immortality
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References: <jkondis.797408445@orion.oac.uci.edu> <1995Apr12.213623.21773@emba.uvm.edu> <3n1t47$qq7@vent.pipex.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 1995 11:51:58 GMT
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Hi,

Pardon me for butting in but I find this interesting.


JohnatAcadInt (ah63@solo.pipex.com) wrote:
> read@emba-news.uvm.edu.UUCP (Helen Read) wrote:
> >
> > From article <jkondis.797408445@orion.oac.uci.edu>, by
> > jkondis@orion.oac.uci.edu (John Kondis):
> > 
> > > That's fine.  Actually, I agree with you that a sophisticated enough 
> > > machine could someday display all the qualities we collectively know as 
> > > "life" or even intelligence.  Problem is, if it is a computer doing it, 
> > > then the simulation will be deterministic, regardless of the complexity 
> > > of the machine.  
> > 
> > Why would the behavior of a computer necessarily be deterministic? If
> > it were complicated enough, and capable of learning and modifying its
> > own software, isn't it possible that even the designers might be
> > unable to predict its behavior?
> > 

That would not make it non-deterministic, just impractibly hard to determine.



> > And where would you draw the line between deterministic and
> > non-deterministic? Would you consider, for example, the behavior of a
> > roulette wheel, or one of those things with all the branching paths
> > that you drop a ball into and see where it comes out on the bottom, to
> > be deterministic? How about the weather? 
>

This is the difference between chaotic and non-deterministic. In principle
a roulette wheel can be described by Newton's laws which are deterministic,
*but* you need very high arithmetic precison to do the calculations.


> 
> > > IMHO, the underlying qualities causing life are not deterministic, so
> > > there needs to be some "undetermined" component in there somewhere.
>

The only undetermined qualities that I have come across are quantum
indeterminacy. Are there others? Certainly quantum events can affect the
behaviour of neurons and, presumably, it would be possible to include
quantum based elements into a computer.


> 
> > Um, what exactly are the "underlying qualities causing life"? 
>

If he had said "causing consciousness" that might have focussed the
problem. There does not seem to me much difference between a virus and
a robot. Also, if you did not have to view humans as conscious then a
deterministic model would work very well.

> 
> > Helen Read
> > 

> An essetial requirement might be something along the lines that
> instead of sitting about waiting for "it" to happen or think 
> "itself", we actually go out of our way to help "it" make "itself".

> I imagine you would argue that in making your posting you have
> exercised your will ... what the hell if it was free or not!
> What's the difference?

> You are presumably both discussing freedom in general. 
> Or else you are only saying things because you have to.

> I used to make determinists cross by saying 

> "You only say that because you have to!"

> And you? What will you say to the next person who thinks
> your utterance determined?

> Kind rgds

> John Murphy


> Frosch

> 		I take it you left Rippach fairly late,
> 		And called on Hansen for your evening meal?

> Mephistopheles

> 		To-day we passed him by, we couldn't wait,
> 		But chatted with him last time, quite a deal,
> 		He talked about his cousin, by the way,
> 		And gave us special greetings to convey.

> ( from Faust, Part 1, Auerbach's Celler in Leipzig.)


> [ Observer: "In what sense could any of the above be determined?]
