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From: qndj@oce-rd2.oce.nl (Nick de Jong)
Subject: Re: religion
Message-ID: <D79z89.7Co@oce.nl>
Followup-To: alt.atheism,alt.religion.christian,talk.origins,talk.religion.misc,alt.consciousness,comp.ai.philosophy
Keywords: religion science
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References: <3mfuqt$5h2@oswald.eciad.bc.ca> <D74520.F55@intruder.daytonoh.attgis
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 1995 09:19:21 GMT
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Hello Phil. You wrote to David:

>don't have statistics, but my guess is that the ever-increasing
>population had as much to do with your observation as weapons advancements.

Yes. We are probably not social enough to live together beyond a certain
nr of people per km2. Our very organised society makes it probably a
higher number.

>Overpopulation and poverty are the real problems here.  Funny how
>religious groups (Christianity and Islam in particular) promote the
>breed-like-rabbits mentality and call it "respect and love for life."

You are generalizing a bit too much here. Some people claiming themself
Christian say 'breed like rabbits'. We probably think of the pope here.
That man is a leftover from the dark-ages in my opinion. Not all (I say
most) agree with him. Please don't see any man who claims himself
authority as authority. The ten commandments from the bible seem fairly
reasonable to me.

>: Evil people have always existed.  What Science has done, in addition to the
>: "good" things, is magnifed a thousand-fold their ability to do evil.
>
>And your point is?  Surely you're not saying we'd be better off without
>science and the advancements it has brought?

Ability, he said. Ability. And he is right with that. With fire I can keep
myself from freezing. With fire I can (NOT will) burn down a whole city.

>If you are merely noting that knowledge *can* be abused, I agree...

Right.. what are we discussing then?


>...however, you are a fool if you believe science has done more harm than
>good.
>
>The 20th century has seen tremendous improvements in human rights, life
>expectancy, and quality of life.  Looks like these terrible, secular
>modern governments have done more to improve quality of life in 50 years
>than your religious ancestors did in 19+ centuries.

You make it sound as if religion is the reason for all bad things. As for
science being 'the only thing that makes our lives good' sounds a bit like
a religion too. Besides that, there have been other peaceful societies even
when science was nothing compared to today (mayas, old china, etc.). Some
of those (relatively) peaceful societies have lasted maybe thousand years.
We are nowhere near that, yet.

Do science and moral have anything to do with each other? I don't think
so. If moral is good (whatever that may be), life can be peaceful. You
don't need science for a peaceful life. Science makes things easier and
saver, yes. Not more peaceful. (Maybe educated (science!) people have a
better moral? Well, maybe..)

>So tell me, why is science bad?  What can religious people do that
>non-theists can't?  Why do we *need* religion?  (And don't even begin to
>suggest that one must be Christian to be moral.)

Most religious think it is a supplement to life. You can well function
without it. Maybe I think I'm happier now. But happyness can't be defined,
so maybe... just maybe, it doesn't exist :)

Bye,

Nick de Jong
(email at nick@grafix.xs4all.nl)
disclaimer: the views in this text are mine

