Newsgroups: comp.ai.philosophy,talk.religion.newage,alt.atheism,alt.pagan,alt.consciousness
Path: cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!das-news2.harvard.edu!news2.near.net!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!news.kei.com!ub!galileo.cc.rochester.edu!prodigal.psych.rochester.edu!stevens
From: stevens@prodigal.psych.rochester.edu (Greg Stevens)
Subject: Re: THE PURPOSE OF LIFE Defined
Message-ID: <1994Dec30.005000.13858@galileo.cc.rochester.edu>
Sender: news@galileo.cc.rochester.edu
Nntp-Posting-Host: prodigal.psych.rochester.edu
Organization: University of Rochester - Rochester, New York
References: <3cr06m$ds0@ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <blaine-2812942318390001@prevost.islandnet.com> <1994Dec29.161026.25197@galileo.cc.rochester.edu> <3dvjt0$7ai@ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 94 00:50:00 GMT
Lines: 83

<3dvjt0$7ai@ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> roose@ix.netcom.com (Richard Roose) writes:

>What the F*** is a community?

A group of people interacting.

>What the F*** is a collective level?

A level of analysis focused on the group of people interacting and the
properties of the group as a whole rather than properties of the individuals.

>What the F*** is emergence?

When the properties of the group as a whole are not direct/obvious outgrowths
of properties of the individual.  Originally it was thought to be when the
properties of the group were not DERIVABLE from the parts (Nagel, 1961;
Grene, 1974; Ayala and Dobzhansky, 1974), though this view has since been
highly questioned (Wimsatt, 1985), and several other views of emergence
have popped up (for discussions, see stuff by William Wimsatt, many of the
works in the Journals and conference publications about Artificial Life).

>Individuals cooperate in societies out of self interset.  

This could be true, but the properties of the collective that result from
such cooperation are not always predictable and obvious.

I said,
>>It's like a traffic jam.  Traffic jams on highways tend to move backward,
>>although each car involved in at at any point in time is only moving
>>forward.  Different properties for different levels of analysis.

>mumbo jumbo!  Traffic jams are a function limited resources where too many 
>people are trying to use these resources at one time.  Traffic jams don't move 
>any where.  They do however, "propagate" in a reverse direction to the flow of 
>traffic, if that is what you are trying to say.  But what the F*** does this 
>have to do with the Purpose of Life?  Are you trying to say that traffic jams 
>are an example of the Purpose of Life?Maybe they refute any purpose to life?  
>Is that IT?

Actually, it was just an example of emergence.

[one person said that picking like off each other is a valid motivation]

I said,
>>Not only that, but somehow Roose is assuming that it is BETTER to, for
>>example, create television sets and get in holy wars than to rid others in
>>the community of pests.

Roose replied,
>That is an absolute asshole's statement.  Where in the F*** have I ever 
>advocated TV sets or holy wars?  Or maybe you weren't paying attention when I 
>was battling every one and his brother on the net over a proposal for 
>eliminating crime in America?

Actually, I was simply mentioning some of the "accomplishments" resulting
from human motivations, and contrasting them with the accomplishments
of great apes, like being lice-free.

Roose said,
>>>> Simple organisms, which include all life forms on 
>>>> Earth except Homo Sapiens, function and act according to the dictates of 
>>>> their genes.....

I said,
>>Not even remotely true.  Any organisms with nervous systems learn, thus
>>producing behavior specific to their individual histories of experience,
>>not having to do with genetics.

Roose replied:
>You don't know very much about genetics or instinct, do you?

I think I know enough to know that classical conditioning results in
many organisms with nervous systems being able to respond differently
through the course of their life-time, exhibiting LEARNING, which results
in behavior not dictated by genes.

Pavlov's dog, for example, learned to salivate in response to a bell.  Do
you think the dog was genetically predisposed to salivate to a bell?

Greg Stevens

stevens@prodigal.psych.rochester.edu

