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From: slfink@netcom.com (Steven Finkelman)
Subject: Re: Time is a human concept (was Re: Reality as a Hologram)
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Date: Fri, 7 Oct 1994 06:34:38 GMT
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shute (mjs14@unix.brighton.ac.uk) wrote:
: That reminds me...  I keep meaning to ask the learned readership...
: I've often seen it mentioned in these groups that 'Time' is a concept
: that is the invention of the human mind... that it doesn't really
: exist... things just are.

: What I've not quite understood in this is 'Why is it necessarily the
: invention of the human mind?'  Does a dog, learning a new trick, such
: as catching a ball, have the concept of 'time', 'cause and effect'?

: So maybe it is the invention of the mammalian mind??
: But then, don't other phila and kingdoms make use of cause and effect
: for their survival?

: Since the only law of physics that incorporates an arrow for time is
: the second law of thermodynamics, could it not be assumed that time
: is real for any system that obeys the second law of thermodynamics??
: In which case, isn't that *everything* in this universe??

: I look forward to your thoughts on this matter... pointing out the
: errors in my reasoning above.

: Cheers,
: -- 

The second law of thermodynamics applies to matter and energy of the
in the ranges that can be measured by physicists and engeneers, I am not
convinced that this is '*everything*' in the universe.  Outside of this is
thought and consciousness, and other things which cannot be measured or
known.  I hold the belief that time is something that is measured by
mechanical devices which are made up of matter and use energy, including the
brains of humans and other sentient creatures.  

The idea of time as it is held by humans typically is an idea that is shaped 
by the mechinisms of the universe, matter and energy, the sun rising and 
setting, the seasons, the phases of the moon, calls to prayer, bells rung,
town clocks, the falling of sand, the burning of candles, pocket watches,
train schedules, pocket watches, wristwatches(analog), atomic clocks,
digital wristwatches, talking clocks, suppertime, The gating and firing of 
neural synapses, to name but a few.  Each observation represents a new 
technology which shapes the beliefs humans have about the perception of time.  
(I cannot speak for other species).

I noticed a change when I went from using a round clock with hands to a
digital clock, in a round clock there is the mechanism of the universe, with
the implication of past, present, and future(you could see the path of the
hands from the past to the future) it only an indication of the force stored
in a spring, released bit by bit by a physical gating mechanism.  With a
digital clock, the past and the future disappears, nothing on the clock face
to indicate past or future, just the flashing of a group of symbols,
arbitrary, and agreed upon by humans to represent time, which is synched to
an agreed upon interval, agreed upon by humans, boiling down to a system of
beliefs,  which humans agree to use or misuse.

Thought, dreams do not follow an agreed upon system of rules, though some
human bodies 'synch' can to each other, for reasons created by biologists to
fit some model that they have, again a systemm of beliefs.  

Einstein said 'as far as the laws of mathmatics [a model
constructed by humans] refer to reality, they are not certain.  As far as
they are certain, they do not refer to reality. 

Goedel theorm is that you cannot fully describe a system with the elements
of that system.

The language we speak and that we are measurably matter and energy and use
matter and energy to produce thoughts, without trancending those thoughts
somehow precludes me from being able to know something outside the universe
I live in. In that universe is time, simply an agreed upon model.  I am not
convinced that there are not other universes, with different sets of laws
(rules). 

Just thought i'd spand some time on the subject :-)


-- 
Steven Finkelman
DATA/Massage                                             
slfink@netcom.com
