From newshub.ccs.yorku.ca!torn!cs.utexas.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!batcomputer!ghost.dsi.unimi.it!37.1!avl0 Sat Oct 24 20:44:32 EDT 1992
Article 7344 of comp.ai.philosophy:
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>From: avl0@cine88.cineca.it
Newsgroups: comp.ai.philosophy
Subject: Re: Brain and Mind (consciousness is not provable).
Message-ID: <1992Oct20.154218.578@cine88.cineca.it>
Date: 20 Oct 92 15:42:18 +0100
Organization: CINECA, Italian Interuniversity comp. centre
Lines: 85

> Message-ID: <1992Oct14.221625.28631@meteor.wisc.edu>
> From: tobis@meteor.wisc.edu (Michael Tobis)
>
> Again, especially since the scientific method rejects subjective evidence, 
> applying the scientific method to subjective phenomena is not guaranteed to 
> work.  Most of you folks seem to think that the scientific method invariably 
> succeeds, and that, while it may elude us at present, a scientific explanation
> of consciousness must in principle exist. I claim that this assertion is as 
> unsupported as its contrary.
>
> So, whether or not (as Dennett seems to claim) consciousness is explained,
> most of the people here seem convinced that such an explanation is possible
> in principle. I think this belief has no foundation beyond intuition, and
> I acknowledge that my belief to the contrary has no foundation beyond 
> intuition. At least my belief is falsifiable: come up with an explanation
> that isn't just handwaving and I will concede the point.

Great! I totally agree. 

Galileian science assumes that the whole world was built up by a 
Mathematician God and, as Boole pointed out the Logic it self is Math.
So, IF the human being is defined(?) be his consciousness, and the
consciousness is(?) Logic, THEN an unbreackable law leads then human 
behaviour, Freedom is a meaningless concept.   
On the contrary it's evident that there is not a law leading Me, there is Me.
And Freedom is one of my fundamental rights because I'm originally free.

The galeleian science it self must apply research methods suitable for the
examined oject and since Math in not suitable for subjective evidence as
consciousness THEN no formal(Math driven) system (nor an alien, nor an human)
can be proved to have consciousness in a scientific sense. 

> Message-ID: <1992Oct14.225558.29323@meteor.wisc.edu>
> From: tobis@meteor.wisc.edu (Michael Tobis)
>
> It seems to me that mind is a quantum phenomenon in the older
> sense of the word: there must be an integer number of minds in the universe.
> There is no meaning to concepts of half-mind or proto-mind. Hence, there
> must be a discontinuity among living species (assuming that a virus has
> no experience.) However, where this discontinuity is will remain unkown
> until the oft threatened but as yet unrealized theory of the "emergence"
> of consciousness arises.

Again, absolutely YES! The concept of half- or proto-mind links minds
with the complexity or functionality of their "hardware", so when I fall ill
I'm less Me than before.... but this is a joke not the reality!

> >This could be a problem for you when the Galactic Federaion finally gets
> >around to sending its ambassador to Earth! (:-))
>Granted.                                              
> >Really, the issue at hand is how to recognize non-human consciousness.
> >It is no different in principle in the case of space aliens than it is with
> >computers.
>Agreed.
> >In neither case do we have access to thier subjective experience, so we must
> >rely on external data to determine its presence.
> >So, what *evidence* would you require to accept a being from another planet
> >was conscious?  How would you distinguish a 'real' aliem from a perfect
> >'android' type robot?  
>I dunno. Beats the hell out of me. Hopefully they would not try to immigrate
>to our turf and we could avoid the issue.

Yes, making questions about aliens is like to ask Columbus about indians before
1492 or Galileo about quantum mechanics. It is meaningless. Come back to the
reality and to real facts, please. 
I'll be happy when aliens will came, then we will restart the discussion.

> >(For that matter, is the distinction even meaningful)?
>Yes, yes, a googol times yes! It is the most important distinction around!

What evidence have YOU greather than YOU are the most important thing in
the Universe? a googol times much important than a chicken, a virus or a rock! 

A corollary: IF one thinks that everything has the same importance as him
THEN please stop him self, any of his action will produce changes in the
environment and he has not the right to do that (may by a fly or worm can be
disturbed...or.. killed: which will be a crime as killing him...or NOT?!)
...so, please, he lets him self die slowly: a crowd of flies and worms will be
happy for that.  

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