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Date: 1 Aug 92 05:10:35 GMT
From: mathew@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov  (Mathew Yeates)
Organization: Image Analysis Systems Group, JPL
Subject: Re: preview question
Message-Id: <mathew.712645835@elroy>
References: <mathew.712533500@henry>, <MeSJgqS00VsnJ4xHpk@andrew.cmu.edu>
Sender: info-andrew-request@andrew.cmu.edu
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu

rr2b+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU (Robert Andrew Ryan) writes:

>Excerpts from internet.other.info-andrew: 30-Jul-92 preview question
>Mathew Yeates@ucbvax.Ber (504)

>> do I need something else? How can I find out whats going on?
>> I recompiled and tried to turn on debugging (self->debug=TRUE) in
>> preview.c but I still get nothing. In general, how are these
>> things debugged? Do I have to run with runapp?

>My usual method for debugging the printing commands is to make the final
>stage a redirect to a file, where I can see if that is as expected.  To
>try this you could have:

>*.PreviewCommand:cat>/tmp/foo.ditroff

>-Rob Ryan
>Andrew Consortium

But what is the default preview command? There is no mention of this in
preview.help or in the preferences help or in the FAQ.
Is this part of the Andrew setup file? I can't even find
out what command is failing. 

-Mathew
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Date: Sat,  1 Aug 1992 13:13:53 -0400 (EDT)
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Subject: Re: preview question
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	<mathew.712645835@elroy>

\begindata{text,538621292}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from internet.other.info-andrew: 1-Aug-92 Re: 
preview question Mathew Yeates@elroy.jpl. (870)}


\quotation{But what is the default preview command? There is no mention of 
this in preview.help or in the preferences help or in the FAQ.

}\quotation{Is this part of the Andrew setup file? }


The default preview command is "preview -o %s", I will fix the preferences 
help file to include this.  This default can be changed by an entry in the 
andrew setup file, or by a #define print_PREVIEWCOMMAND in your site.h file.


Do you run console? Error messages from the preview process will go there. 
 You might want to try ezprint -preview, which will send the errors to your 
tty.


-Rob Ryan

Andrew Consortium

\enddata{text,538621292}

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To: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>,
    dog.ee.lbl.gov!hellgate.utah.edu!caen!sdd.hp.com!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!henry!mathe.w@ucbvax.berkeley.edu
    (Mathew Yeates)
Subject: Re: preview question
In-Reply-To: <mathew.712533500@henry>
References: <mathew.712533500@henry>

Excerpts from mail: 30-Jul-92 preview question Mathew Yeates@ucbvax.ber (504)

> I'm having trouble preview documents. After selecting "preview" from
> the ez menu, a window pops up and then immediately dissapears.
> There is no warning or error message.

> My preference file contains
> *.FormatCommand: psroff -t /tmp/%s.n |
> *.PrintCommand: lpr


The input to "preview" needs to be device-independent ditroff, rather
than postscript, as indicated by the "*.FormatCommand" preference.

A better set of preferences might be:

*.formatcommand: tbl /tmp/%s.n | eqn | ditroff -Tpsc |
*.printcommand: psdit | lpr; rm -f /tmp/%s.n; rm -f /tmp/%s.n.dvi


-Bob
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To: Info-Andrew <info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu>

 dog.ee.lbl.gov!hellgate.utah.edu!caen!sdd.hp.com!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!henry!mathe
 .w@ucbvax.berkeley.edu
    (Mathew Yeates)
Subject: Re: preview question
In-Reply-To: <mathew.712533500@henry>
References: <mathew.712533500@henry>

Excerpts from mail: 30-Jul-92 preview question Mathew Yeates@ucbvax.ber (504)

> I'm having trouble preview documents. After selecting "preview" from
> the ez menu, a window pops up and then immediately dissapears.
> There is no warning or error message.

> My preference file contains
> *.FormatCommand: psroff -t /tmp/%s.n |
> *.PrintCommand: lpr


The input to "preview" needs to be device-independent ditroff, rather
than postscript, as indicated by the "*.FormatCommand" preference.

A better set of preferences might be:

*.formatcommand: tbl /tmp/%s.n | eqn | ditroff -Tpsc |
*.printcommand: psdit | lpr; rm -f /tmp/%s.n; rm -f /tmp/%s.n.dvi


-Bob
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Date: Tue, 4 Aug 92 05:28:37 CST
From: ycy@eembox.ncku.edu.tw (Master Yang Chen-Yaun (82.9))
Message-Id: <9208032128.AA00452@eembox.ncku.edu.tw>
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Help 


Dear Gentleman :

   Thank for your labor . I had anonymous ftp many papers form emsworth.andrew.cum.edu ( 128.2.30.62 ) under /andrew/doc/papsers directory . But I can not 
print these papers correctly . 
   Please tell me how to print thses paper correctly . ( Postsrcipt ? ).
    
   I am very insteresting in Andrew file system . Could you tell me how to 
get more papsers or information about Andrew file system . 

   Thnaks !

Sincerely yours,

Chen-Yaun Yang 
National Cheng Kung University
Tainan, Taiwan 
Republic of China
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Date: Mon, 3 Aug 92 17:01:39 EST
From: "Alfredo Remy Pflucker" <AREMY@PERVM1.VNET.IBM.COM>
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: ADEW

Going through the Workbench, makedaccon gives error while trying to
generate the Makefile for the daccon.c sample application. The following
is the makedaccon output:

#### Generating Makefile with Relative Path:
     ./../../cdrom/rs_aix31/andrew
/usr/local/bin/imake : Command not found
making dependencies
Make : Do not know how to make dependend
          Check that the target is defined in the
          description file and that the dependency
          file exists
       Quitting
Make : There must be a file named makefile or Makefile
          in the current directory or an existing
          description file listed after the -f flag
       Quitting

............

There is no /usr/local/bin/imake file in my installation.  There is
a /util/imake executable.   Also, genmake references an imake.tmpl
which I found in the /usr/andrew/config.  Do I need to do some
editing?

Alfredo
\enddata{text822, 11658}
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\begindata{text,538661592}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from misc: 4-Aug-92 Help Master Y. Chen-Yaun@eemb 
(534)}


\quotation{I had anonymous ftp many papers form emsworth.andrew.cum.edu ( 
128.2.30.62 ) under /andrew/doc/papsers directory . But I can not 

}\quotation{print these papers correctly . 

}\quotation{   Please tell me how to print thses paper correctly . ( 
Postsrcipt ? ).

}
If the file ends in .psc then it's in Postscript form.  If you have a 
Postscript printer, you should be able to just ship the file to the printer:



% \bold{lpr -P <printer> file.psc}


If you don't have a Postscript printer, then these files can be viewed with a 
Postscript previewer like \italic{ghostscript}.


If you don't have a previewer, then you are out of luck with the .psc files.


If you are interested in the Andrew File System (AFS), you should send mail to 
info-afs@transarc.com:


\leftindent{> \bold{finger info-afs@transarc.com}

[transarc.com]

Login name: info-afs                    In real life: Info-AFS

Office: Transarc Corporation; The Gulf Tower; 707 Grant Street; Pittsburgh, PA 
15219, +1 412 338 4400

Address mail to: info-afs+@transarc.com

Mail is forwarded to distribution list 
/afs/transarc.com/usr/postman/DistLists/info-afs.dl

}
Gary Keim

Andrew Consortium

\enddata{text,538661592}

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Date: Mon,  3 Aug 1992 18:24:42 -0400 (EDT)
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To: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>,
    "Alfredo Remy Pflucker" <AREMY@PERVM1.VNET.IBM.COM>
Subject: Re: Console - CDROM ATK 5.1
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References: <Added.4eTOsra00UkTN8aU8t@andrew.cmu.edu>

\begindata{text,538661592}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from misc: 3-Aug-92 Console - CDROM ATK 5.1 Alfredo 
Pflucker@PERVM1. (262)}


\quotation{Running console gives the following errors:

}
\quotation{<warning: console> X error BadMatch (invalid parameter attributes) 
(8)

}\quotation{major code 93 minor code 0 ignored

}\quotation{<warning: console> X error BadMatch (invalid Cursor parameter) (6) 
major

}\quotation{code 2 minor code 0 ignored

}
Interesting.  What sort of display are you running?


% \bold{xdpyinfo}


Are you running the X11R5 binaries from the CDROM?  If yes, are you running 
directly off of the disc or from a read/write filesystem?


Do any other Andrew applications exhibit this behavior?


Gary Keim

Andrew Consortium

\enddata{text,538661592}

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\begindata{text,538661592}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from misc: 3-Aug-92 ADEW Alfredo Pflucker@PERVM1.
(893)}


\quotation{     ./../../cdrom/rs_aix31/andrew

}\quotation{/usr/local/bin/imake : Command not found

}
I'm not positive about \italic{makedaccon} but I believe that it is just
calling $ANDREWDIR/bin/genmake.  You can edit genmake to have it call your
imake.


\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from misc: 3-Aug-92 ADEW Alfredo Pflucker@PERVM1.
(893)}


\quotation{Also, genmake references an imake.tmpl

}\quotation{which I found in the /usr/andrew/config.  Do I need to do some

}\quotation{editing?

}
Assuming that ANDREWDIR is properly set, the only thing that \italic{genmake}
really does is this:


imake -I$(ANDREWDIR) -I$(ANDREWDIR)/config -Timake.tmpl -sMakefile
-DTOPDIR=$(ANDREWDIR)


So, you can just replace the contents of $ANDREWDIR/bin/genmake with the above
line.


Let me know if this is absolutely correct.


Gary Keim

Andrew Consortium

\enddata{text,538661592}

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Date: Mon, 3 Aug 92 17:09:12 EST
From: "Alfredo Remy Pflucker" <AREMY@pervm1.vnet.ibm.com>
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Console - CDROM ATK 5.1

Running console gives the following errors:

<warning: console> X error BadMatch (invalid parameter attributes) (8)
major code 93 minor code 0 ignored
<warning: console> X error BadMatch (invalid Cursor parameter) (6) major
code 2 minor code 0 ignored

Alfredo

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Date: Tue, 4 Aug 92 05:28:37 CST
From: ycy@eembox.ncku.edu.tw (Master Yang Chen-Yaun (82.9))
Message-Id: <9208032128.AA00452@eembox.ncku.edu.tw>
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Help


Dear Gentleman :

   Thank for your labor . I had anonymous ftp many papers form
 emsworth.andrew.cum.edu ( 128.2.30.62 ) under /andrew/doc/papsers directory .
 But I can not
print these papers correctly .
   Please tell me how to print thses paper correctly . ( Postsrcipt ? ).

   I am very insteresting in Andrew file system . Could you tell me how to
get more papsers or information about Andrew file system .

   Thnaks !

Sincerely yours,

Chen-Yaun Yang
National Cheng Kung University
Tainan, Taiwan
Republic of China
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Date: Mon,  3 Aug 1992 18:24:42 -0400 (EDT)
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Subject: Re: Console - CDROM ATK 5.1
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\begindata{text,538661592}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from misc: 3-Aug-92 Console - CDROM ATK 5.1 Alfredo
Pflucker@PERVM1. (262)}


\quotation{Running console gives the following errors:

}
\quotation{<warning: console> X error BadMatch (invalid parameter attributes)
(8)

}\quotation{major code 93 minor code 0 ignored

}\quotation{<warning: console> X error BadMatch (invalid Cursor parameter) (6)
major

}\quotation{code 2 minor code 0 ignored

}
Interesting.  What sort of display are you running?


% \bold{xdpyinfo}


Are you running the X11R5 binaries from the CDROM?  If yes, are you running
directly off of the disc or from a read/write filesystem?


Do any other Andrew applications exhibit this behavior?


Gary Keim

Andrew Consortium

\enddata{text,538661592}

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Date: Mon, 3 Aug 92 17:01:39 EST
From: "Alfredo Remy Pflucker" <AREMY@pervm1.vnet.ibm.com>
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: ADEW

Going through the Workbench, makedaccon gives error while trying to
generate the Makefile for the daccon.c sample application. The following
is the makedaccon output:

#### Generating Makefile with Relative Path:
     ./../../cdrom/rs_aix31/andrew
/usr/local/bin/imake : Command not found
making dependencies
Make : Do not know how to make dependend
          Check that the target is defined in the
          description file and that the dependency
          file exists
       Quitting
Make : There must be a file named makefile or Makefile
          in the current directory or an existing
          description file listed after the -f flag
       Quitting

............

There is no /usr/local/bin/imake file in my installation.  There is
a /util/imake executable.   Also, genmake references an imake.tmpl
which I found in the /usr/andrew/config.  Do I need to do some
editing?

Alfredo
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Date: 3 Aug 92 16:12:40 GMT
From: nih-csl!alw.nih.gov!rdew@uunet.uu.net  (Bob Dew)
Organization: National Inst. of Health, DCRT, CSL
Subject: Re: AFS authentication for "non-human" processes
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References: <1992Aug3.132334.16025@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu>
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To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu


There are more sophisticated ways of authenticating cron-activated jobs, but for a "quick & dirty" solution to your specific problem, consider the following:


1)  Create an AFS UID, which will be an account name that has write access to the shared repository volume.  Lets say the userid is called "root-auth".

2) Create a volume with acls, "root-auth rli".  This will serve as the shared repository for information generated by "root" on various workstations.

3) In the crontab file on each machine that needs "root" write-access to the shared AFS volume, add a line similar to, "klog root-auth passwd", where "passwd" is root-auth's password.  Have the cron job run a couple times a day to renew tokens.

Machines which run this special crontab entry will grant any root user (or any root-shell process) write-access to the shared volume.  This will allow various workstations to dump information into a common AFS repository.  Individual users who which access this repository should be added to this volume's Access Control List.

The drawback to this method is that an AFS password is written in clear text, visible to anyone who has root access to the machines that run the special crontab job.


-Bob
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Date: Mon,  3 Aug 1992 18:04:55 -0400 (EDT)
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\begindata{text,538661592}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from misc: 4-Aug-92 Help Master Y. Chen-Yaun@eemb
(534)}


\quotation{I had anonymous ftp many papers form emsworth.andrew.cum.edu (
128.2.30.62 ) under /andrew/doc/papsers directory . But I can not

}\quotation{print these papers correctly .

}\quotation{   Please tell me how to print thses paper correctly . (
Postsrcipt ? ).

}
If the file ends in .psc then it's in Postscript form.  If you have a
Postscript printer, you should be able to just ship the file to the printer:



% \bold{lpr -P <printer> file.psc}


If you don't have a Postscript printer, then these files can be viewed with a
Postscript previewer like \italic{ghostscript}.


If you don't have a previewer, then you are out of luck with the .psc files.


If you are interested in the Andrew File System (AFS), you should send mail to
info-afs@transarc.com:


\leftindent{> \bold{finger info-afs@transarc.com}

[transarc.com]

Login name: info-afs                    In real life: Info-AFS

Office: Transarc Corporation; The Gulf Tower; 707 Grant Street; Pittsburgh, PA
15219, +1 412 338 4400

Address mail to: info-afs+@transarc.com

Mail is forwarded to distribution list
/afs/transarc.com/usr/postman/DistLists/info-afs.dl

}
Gary Keim

Andrew Consortium

\enddata{text,538661592}

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Date: 3 Aug 92 16:12:40 GMT
From: nih-csl!alw.nih.gov!rdew@uunet.uu.net  (Bob Dew)
Organization: National Inst. of Health, DCRT, CSL
Subject: Re: AFS authentication for "non-human" processes
Message-Id: <1992Aug3.161240.3397@alw.nih.gov>
References: <1992Aug3.132334.16025@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu>
Sender: info-andrew-request@andrew.cmu.edu
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu


There are more sophisticated ways of authenticating cron-activated jobs, but for
 a "quick & dirty" solution to your specific problem, consider the following:


1)  Create an AFS UID, which will be an account name that has write access to
 the shared repository volume.  Lets say the userid is called "root-auth".

2) Create a volume with acls, "root-auth rli".  This will serve as the shared
 repository for information generated by "root" on various workstations.

3) In the crontab file on each machine that needs "root" write-access to the
 shared AFS volume, add a line similar to, "klog root-auth passwd", where
 "passwd" is root-auth's password.  Have the cron job run a couple times a day
 to renew tokens.

Machines which run this special crontab entry will grant any root user (or any
 root-shell process) write-access to the shared volume.  This will allow various
 workstations to dump information into a common AFS repository.  Individual
 users who which access this repository should be added to this volume's Access
 Control List.

The drawback to this method is that an AFS password is written in clear text,
 visible to anyone who has root access to the machines that run the special
 crontab job.


-Bob
\enddata{text822, 37743}
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Date: 3 Aug 92 16:52:34 GMT
From: bloom-picayune.mit.edu!snorkelwacker.mit.edu!thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu!sobeco!stacy@bloom-beacon.mit.edu  (Stacy L. Millions)
Organization: Sobeco Ernst & Young
Subject: compiling andrew for Risc/os 4.52
Message-Id: <1992Aug3.165234.14003@sobeco.com>
Sender: info-andrew-request@andrew.cmu.edu
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu


Hi,

I'm trying to compile andrew for a MIPS running 4.52. This is not
one of the known platforms. The README file tells me that 
overhead/class/machdep may "need customization". Now there's an
understatement for you :-)

Has anyone done the work for Risc/os? If not, any pointers on where
to start... I have looked at the sgi_mips stuff but Risc/os does
not give me a real mmap() so that's out and I looked at the dec_mips*
but since Ultrix is, well, Ultrix this doesn't seem to help me
much.

In short, HELP! Any takers?

-stacy

-- 
"In Russia we have a saying,                                   stacy@sobeco.com
Women are like trucks... and that's it."                        stacy@sobeco.ca
    - Yakov Schmirnoff                                       uunet!sobeco!stacy
\enddata{text822, 41143}
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Date: 3 Aug 92 16:52:34 GMT
From: bloom-picayune.mit.edu!snorkelwacker.mit.edu!thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu!sobeco!s tacy@bloom-beacon.mit.edu   (Stacy L. Millions)
Organization: Sobeco Ernst & Young
Subject: compiling andrew for Risc/os 4.52
Message-Id: <1992Aug3.165234.14003@sobeco.com>
Sender: info-andrew-request@andrew.cmu.edu
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu


Hi,

I'm trying to compile andrew for a MIPS running 4.52. This is not
one of the known platforms. The README file tells me that
overhead/class/machdep may "need customization". Now there's an
understatement for you :-)

Has anyone done the work for Risc/os? If not, any pointers on where
to start... I have looked at the sgi_mips stuff but Risc/os does
not give me a real mmap() so that's out and I looked at the dec_mips*
but since Ultrix is, well, Ultrix this doesn't seem to help me
much.

In short, HELP! Any takers?

-stacy

--
"In Russia we have a saying,                                   stacy@sobeco.com
Women are like trucks... and that's it."                        stacy@sobeco.ca
    - Yakov Schmirnoff                                       uunet!sobeco!stacy
\enddata{text822, 43271}
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Date: 3 Aug 92 13:23:34 GMT
From: uchinews!msuinfo!news@handies.ucar.edu  (Paul T. Barczak)
Organization: Michigan State University, East Lansing
Subject: AFS authentication for "non-human" processes
Message-Id: <1992Aug3.132334.16025@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu>
Sender: info-andrew-request@andrew.cmu.edu
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu


We're considering using an AFS volume as a repository for information 
generated by "root" on several workstations.  This poses a problem 
with AFS authentication, in that a password must be presented in order
to obtain a ticket from the AFS server.  Since the processes will be
started either by cron or from some other "non-human" source (inetd), 
there will be no human available to request the AFS repository password 
from.

This seems to be a common situation with any distributed file system 
(automatically generated processes writing to files), so it seems like
AFS should handle this type of authentication.

Is there some common way of doing this with AFS?  We'd like to
be able to "degrade" AFS security to the level of NFS for this single 
volume, in that a request from a specific user at a host would not need 
a password for authentication.

We could obtain a token by keeping the repository password in a file, but for 
obvious reasons, we'd prefer to stay away from that option.

---
Paul Barczak                           internet:  ptb@convex.cl.msu.edu
Michigan State University              bitnet:    20832PTB@MSU.BITNET
Computer Center                       
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Date: Tue, 4 Aug 92 10:58:07 EST
From: "Alfredo Remy Pflucker" <AREMY@PERVM1.VNET.IBM.COM>
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: console

ref: Gary Keim note of 3/8/92

>Interesting.  What sort of display are you running?

I am running console on RS/6000 mod 560 with AIX3.2.  The display is a
6091 mod 19.

>Are you running the X11R5 binaries from CDROM?

No.  I am running X11.4 which comes with AIX 3.2

>Do any other Andrew applications exhibit this behaviour?

I have only run ATKDEMO and the applications in the menu executed okey.

Alfredo

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Date: Tue, 4 Aug 92 14:28:39 EST
From: "Alfredo Remy Pflucker" <AREMY@PERVM1.VNET.IBM.COM>
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: console

Changing the BDF fonts to SNF cleared the warning errors.  I got the
following when doing: % mkfontdir /tmp/snffonts

/tmp/snffonts/icon12.snf: same font name (icon12) as icn16x16.snf  skipping

Also, now when console starts the following message appears in the
console window:
                Console <OpenConsoleSocket> gethostbyname failed

Thanks,
Alfredo
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Date: Tue, 4 Aug 92 14:34:42 EST
From: "Alfredo Remy Pflucker" <AREMY@PERVM1.VNET.IBM.COM>
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: ADEW

Since I am linking to the CD-ROM files, I could not edit the site.mcr
file.  What I did was add /usr/util and /usr/andrew/config to the PATH.
This, and changing the LIBPATH as you recommended, solved the makedaccon
problem I was having.

thanks,
Alfredo
\enddata{text822, 51519}
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Message-ID: <geTj0Y600VsBAP=mwG@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Tue,  4 Aug 1992 17:01:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: Susan Straub <susan+@andrew.cmu.edu>
X-Andrew-Message-Size: 601+0
Content-Type: X-BE2; 12
To: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Out of Service. 

\begindata{text,539572668}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
The Andrew Consortium, as well as our ftp server emsworth.andrew.cmu.edu, will 
be out of service temporarily.  We are moving to a new location on campus and 
must take our machines down for a day or so.  We hope to be back up and happy 
by Friday.  


Here's the info on our new home: 


	Andrew Consortium

	Carnegie Mellon University

	Smith Hall 106

	5000 Forbes Avenue

	Pittsburgh, PA  15213


	Consortium Phone:  (412) 268-6710

	Fax:  (412) 682-5927


Also, we are experiencing problems with people receiving duplicate messages 
from the info-andrew distribution list.  We hope to get this fixed soon.  


\enddata{text,539572668}

\enddata{text822, 52786}
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Message-ID: <4eTlfNe00Vsn5KBUcC@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Tue,  4 Aug 1992 20:03:37 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Andrew Ryan <rr2b+@andrew.cmu.edu>
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To: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Out of Service.
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References: <geTj0Y600VsBAP=mwG@andrew.cmu.edu>

\begindata{text,538646160}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from internet.other.info-andrew: 4-Aug-92 Out of 
Service. Susan Straub (601+0)}


\quotation{The Andrew Consortium, as well as our ftp server 
emsworth.andrew.cmu.edu, will be out of service temporarily.  We are moving to 
a new location on campus and must take our machines down for a day or so.  We 
hope to be back up and happy by Friday.  

}

This of course includes the Remote Andrew Demo Service.  It will be taken down 
Wednesday night, and hopefully will come back up Thursday or Friday.


-Rob Ryan

Rdemo Maintainer

Andrew Consortium



\enddata{text,538646160}

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Date: Tue, 4 Aug 92 10:58:07 EST
From: "Alfredo Remy Pflucker" <AREMY@pervm1.vnet.ibm.com>
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: console

ref: Gary Keim note of 3/8/92

>Interesting.  What sort of display are you running?

I am running console on RS/6000 mod 560 with AIX3.2.  The display is a
6091 mod 19.

>Are you running the X11R5 binaries from CDROM?

No.  I am running X11.4 which comes with AIX 3.2

>Do any other Andrew applications exhibit this behaviour?

I have only run ATKDEMO and the applications in the menu executed okey.

Alfredo

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Date: Tue, 4 Aug 92 11:14:17 EST
From: "Alfredo Remy Pflucker" <AREMY@pervm1.vnet.ibm.com>
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: ADEW

ref: Gary Kein note of 3/8/92

> ... I believe that it (makedaccon) is just calling $ANDREWDIR/bin/genmake

There is a lot of confussion with the libraries referenced.  makedaccon calls
genmake as you say, but somewhere in the make process /usr/local/bin/imake
is called.  How is this library called?  Also imake.tmpl is not found.  I had
to go in and find it and then edit genmake.

I thought I had finally made all the changes when, during the make dependencies
process, the error: /usr/local/bin/makedepend  was not found.

So, I edited makedaccon: changed make depend to /usr/util/makedepend.

Now the makedaccon gives the following errors:

doindex: indexing daccon.do...while attempting to load daccon.do
Error on load syscall: 'No such file or directory'
Could not load program daccon.do
The error code from the last failed command is -1

I run ez adc (following the instructions in the manual) and it run okey.

> Assuming that ANDREWDIR is properly set, the only thing that \italic
>(genmake) really does is this:

>imake -I$(ANDREWDIR) -I$(ANDREWDIR)/config -Timake.tmpl -sMakefile
>-DTOPDIR=$(ANDREWDIR)

>So, you can replace the contents of $ANDREWDIR/bin/genmake with
>the above line.

I did this and got the error:  -I/usr/andrew not found

Alfredo
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Date: Tue,  4 Aug 1992 17:01:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: Susan Straub <susan+@andrew.cmu.edu>
X-Andrew-Message-Size: 601+0
Content-Type: X-BE2; 12
To: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Out of Service.

\begindata{text,539572668}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
The Andrew Consortium, as well as our ftp server emsworth.andrew.cmu.edu, will
be out of service temporarily.  We are moving to a new location on campus and
must take our machines down for a day or so.  We hope to be back up and happy
by Friday.


Here's the info on our new home:


	Andrew Consortium

	Carnegie Mellon University

	Smith Hall 106

	5000 Forbes Avenue

	Pittsburgh, PA  15213


	Consortium Phone:  (412) 268-6710

	Fax:  (412) 682-5927


Also, we are experiencing problems with people receiving duplicate messages
from the info-andrew distribution list.  We hope to get this fixed soon.


\enddata{text,539572668}

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Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1992 23:15:06 -0600
From: dunkel@carbon.chem.utah.edu
Message-Id: <9208050515.AA31935@carbon.chem.utah.edu>
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu
Cc: dunkel@carbon.chem.utah.edu
Subject: Process ID of help program?

For a newly written application we would like to incorporate the
Andrew help system to provide interactive documentation/help. 
Is there a way for the application calling the help system
to know when (1) the help system has finished with the startup 
procedure (mainly to show an XC_watch cursor during the somewhat
slow startup) and (2) to find out when the user quits from the
help system?

This is easy to do if we could find out what the PID of the help 
process is. Unfortunately, the called help process apparently
forks a child and dies so that neither PID nor PPID of the help
child process (which displays the help screen) are known - and possibly
several similar help processes could be active at any given time.
Does anybody have a hint on how to find out about the end of the
start-up phase and the termination of the help system from the
application that started the help system?

Thanks
   __                                      _
  |  )      o       |              |      | \            |        |
  | /    _          |_   _    _   _|      |  |           |     _  |
  |/\   /_) |  ^ ^  | |  _)  |   / |      |  | | |  ^ ^  |_)  /_) |
  |  \_/\___|_| | |_| |_(_|__|___\_|      |_/__|_|_| | |_| \_/\___|

  Department of Chemistry            Office: (801) 581-7351         
  2020 Henry Eyring Building b113    Home:   (801) 582-7516         
  University of Utah                 FAX:    (801) 581-8433         
  Salt Lake City, UT 84112           dunkel@chemistry.chem.utah.edu 
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Date: Tue, 4 Aug 92 14:28:39 EST
From: "Alfredo Remy Pflucker" <AREMY@pervm1.vnet.ibm.com>
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: console

Changing the BDF fonts to SNF cleared the warning errors.  I got the
following when doing: % mkfontdir /tmp/snffonts

/tmp/snffonts/icon12.snf: same font name (icon12) as icn16x16.snf  skipping

Also, now when console starts the following message appears in the
console window:
                Console <OpenConsoleSocket> gethostbyname failed

Thanks,
Alfredo
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Date: Tue, 4 Aug 92 14:34:42 EST
From: "Alfredo Remy Pflucker" <AREMY@pervm1.vnet.ibm.com>
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: ADEW

Since I am linking to the CD-ROM files, I could not edit the site.mcr
file.  What I did was add /usr/util and /usr/andrew/config to the PATH.
This, and changing the LIBPATH as you recommended, solved the makedaccon
problem I was having.

thanks,
Alfredo
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Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1992 23:15:06 -0600
From: dunkel@carbon.chem.utah.edu
Message-Id: <9208050515.AA31935@carbon.chem.utah.edu>
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu
Cc: dunkel@carbon.chem.utah.edu
Subject: Process ID of help program?

For a newly written application we would like to incorporate the
Andrew help system to provide interactive documentation/help.
Is there a way for the application calling the help system
to know when (1) the help system has finished with the startup
procedure (mainly to show an XC_watch cursor during the somewhat
slow startup) and (2) to find out when the user quits from the
help system?

This is easy to do if we could find out what the PID of the help
process is. Unfortunately, the called help process apparently
forks a child and dies so that neither PID nor PPID of the help
child process (which displays the help screen) are known - and possibly
several similar help processes could be active at any given time.
Does anybody have a hint on how to find out about the end of the
start-up phase and the termination of the help system from the
application that started the help system?

Thanks
   __                                      _
  |  )      o       |              |      | \            |        |
  | /    _          |_   _    _   _|      |  |           |     _  |
  |/\   /_) |  ^ ^  | |  _)  |   / |      |  | | |  ^ ^  |_)  /_) |
  |  \_/\___|_| | |_| |_(_|__|___\_|      |_/__|_|_| | |_| \_/\___|

  Department of Chemistry            Office: (801) 581-7351
  2020 Henry Eyring Building b113    Home:   (801) 582-7516
  University of Utah                 FAX:    (801) 581-8433
  Salt Lake City, UT 84112           dunkel@chemistry.chem.utah.edu
\enddata{text822, 72240}
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From: Erik Wilde <wilde@komsys.tik.ethz.ch>
Message-Id: <315*/S=wilde/OU=komsys/OU=tik/O=ethz/PRMD=SWITCH/ADMD=ARCOM/C=CH/@MHS>
To: "Andrew Mailing List at CMU" <info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: ATK-ODIF Converters

I have a question concerning the ATK Text to ODIF (and reverse)
Converters available from the EXPRES Project. Does anybody have these
things up and running with Andrew 5.1? I only have the book of
Rosenberg, Sherman, Marks and Akkerhuis (called "Multi-media Document
Translation, ODA and the EXPRES Project" from the Springer-Verlag),
where can I get the software and does it work with 5.1 (we have Sun 3's
with SunOS 4.0.1)? Thanks for any answers and help,

Erik Wilde
Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (ETH Zuerich)
Institut fuer Technische Informatik und Kommunikationssysteme (TIK)
ETH-Zentrum, Haldeneggsteig 4, IFW C27.1, CH - 8092 Zuerich
Phone: +41-1-2547009  Fax: +41-1-2623973  Mail: wilde@komsys.tik.ethz.ch
\enddata{text822, 75576}
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Date: Wed,  5 Aug 1992 09:31:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: Bob Dew <rdew+@alw.nih.gov>
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To: "Andrew Mailing List at CMU" <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>,
    Erik Wilde <wilde@komsys.tik.ethz.ch>
Subject: Re: ATK-ODIF Converters
In-Reply-To: <315*/S=wilde/OU=komsys/OU=tik/O=ethz/PRMD=SWITCH/ADMD=ARCOM/C=CH/@MHS>
References: <315*/S=wilde/OU=komsys/OU=tik/O=ethz/PRMD=SWITCH/ADMD=ARCOM/C=CH/@MHS>


> I have a question concerning the ATK Text to ODIF (and reverse)
> Converters available from the EXPRES Project. Does anybody have these
things up and running with Andrew 5.1?


You'll have to go back to a pre-5.0 Andrew release to get ahold of the
ODA toolkit.  Previous Andrew releases are available via anonymous ftp
from export.lcs.mit.edu.

However, you won't, in all likelihood, be able to build the toolkit in
an earlier Andrew release and then incorporate it into 5.1.   And it may
not be worth your while in any event--the ODA translators provided with
Andrew are prototypes that implement only a subset of formatting
facilities for text and fonts.  They're not validated for conformance
with the NIST standard, and aren't really useful for practical
applications, as they are incapable of retaining both style information
and formatting information in bi-directional document interchange.

-Bob
\enddata{text822, 77718}
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Date: Wed,  5 Aug 1992 09:31:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: Bob Dew <rdew@alw.nih.gov>
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To: "Andrew Mailing List at CMU" <info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu>,
        Erik Wilde <wilde@komsys.tik.ethz.ch>
Subject: Re: ATK-ODIF Converters
In-Reply-To: 
 <315*/S=wilde/OU=komsys/OU=tik/O=ethz/PRMD=SWITCH/ADMD=ARCOM/C=CH/@MHS>
References: 
 <315*/S=wilde/OU=komsys/OU=tik/O=ethz/PRMD=SWITCH/ADMD=ARCOM/C=CH/@MHS>


> I have a question concerning the ATK Text to ODIF (and reverse)
> Converters available from the EXPRES Project. Does anybody have these
things up and running with Andrew 5.1?


You'll have to go back to a pre-5.0 Andrew release to get ahold of the
ODA toolkit.  Previous Andrew releases are available via anonymous ftp
from export.lcs.mit.edu.

However, you won't, in all likelihood, be able to build the toolkit in
an earlier Andrew release and then incorporate it into 5.1.   And it may
not be worth your while in any event--the ODA translators provided with
Andrew are prototypes that implement only a subset of formatting
facilities for text and fonts.  They're not validated for conformance
with the NIST standard, and aren't really useful for practical
applications, as they are incapable of retaining both style information
and formatting information in bi-directional document interchange.

-Bob
\enddata{text822, 80491}
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Date: Wed,  5 Aug 1992 11:10:57 -0400 (EDT)
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Subject: Re: Process ID of help program?
CC: dunkel@carbon.chem.utah.edu
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References: <9208050515.AA31935@carbon.chem.utah.edu>

\begindata{text,538750940}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from internet.other.info-andrew: 4-Aug-92 Process 
ID of help program? dunkel@carbon.chem.utah. (1495)}


\quotation{For a newly written application we would like to incorporate the

}\quotation{Andrew help system to provide interactive documentation/help. 

}\quotation{Is there a way for the application calling the help system

}\quotation{to know when (1) the help system has finished with the startup 

}\quotation{procedure (mainly to show an XC_watch cursor during the somewhat 
slow startup) and (2) to find out when the user quits from the help system?

}
I think you're stuck with one or the other....   Look at im_AddZombieHandler 
and im_RemoveZombieHandler.  These can be used to tell when a forked child 
exits.  The good news is that help delays it's own forking until it has 
completed the lookup, so waiting for the child of your program to die  will 
tell you when the help window is operational.  The bad news is that you then 
can't tell when the user quits the help process.


The good/bad news is that if you give the help program the '-d' flag it will 
not fork, so when your child exits you know the user quit the help process. 
 Then you won't be able to tell when help has finished it's startup though.


It would be fairly simple to modify help to send it's parent a SIGUSR1 or such 
when the setup is done, then you could use im_SignalHandler to catch the 
SIGUSR1 in the parent of the help process.  (In conjunction with passing the 
-d flag to help.)


Hope this helps,

-Rob Ryan

Andrew Consortium




\enddata{text,538750940}

\enddata{text822, 84213}
\begindata{text822, 87096}
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To: Bob Dew <Bob_Dew@alw.nih.gov>
Subject: Re: ATK-ODIF Converters
CC: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>, wilde@komsys.tik.ethz.ch,
    jxr@thumper.bellcore.com, Ann Marks <annm+@andrew.cmu.edu>,
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	<MeTxUSu0ts4jMcd0sC@alw.nih.gov>

\begindata{text,18574996}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
I doubt that the translators work with the latest version of ATK since ATK 
moved on and no one maintained the translators. Howevr, I disagree with the 
statement "they are incapable of retaining both style information and 
formatting information in bi-directional document interchange." One of the 
objectives/results that distinguished the Expres work from other ODA work was 
the retention of both style and formatting information, instead of just 
formatting information.

		-Mark

\enddata{text,18574996}

\enddata{text822, 87096}
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References: <9208050515.AA31935@carbon.chem.utah.edu>

\begindata{text,538750940}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from internet.other.info-andrew: 4-Aug-92 Process
ID of help program? dunkel@carbon.chem.utah. (1495)}


\quotation{For a newly written application we would like to incorporate the

}\quotation{Andrew help system to provide interactive documentation/help.

}\quotation{Is there a way for the application calling the help system

}\quotation{to know when (1) the help system has finished with the startup

}\quotation{procedure (mainly to show an XC_watch cursor during the somewhat
slow startup) and (2) to find out when the user quits from the help system?

}
I think you're stuck with one or the other....   Look at im_AddZombieHandler
and im_RemoveZombieHandler.  These can be used to tell when a forked child
exits.  The good news is that help delays it's own forking until it has
completed the lookup, so waiting for the child of your program to die  will
tell you when the help window is operational.  The bad news is that you then
can't tell when the user quits the help process.


The good/bad news is that if you give the help program the '-d' flag it will
not fork, so when your child exits you know the user quit the help process.
 Then you won't be able to tell when help has finished it's startup though.


It would be fairly simple to modify help to send it's parent a SIGUSR1 or such
when the setup is done, then you could use im_SignalHandler to catch the
SIGUSR1 in the parent of the help process.  (In conjunction with passing the
-d flag to help.)


Hope this helps,

-Rob Ryan

Andrew Consortium




\enddata{text,538750940}

\enddata{text822, 89199}
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From: Bob Dew <rdew+@alw.nih.gov>
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To: Mark_Sherman@transarc.com
Subject: Re: ATK-ODIF Converters
CC: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>
In-Reply-To: <EeU2WkP0BwxHMhN_V2@transarc.com>
References: 
 <315*/S=wilde/OU=komsys/OU=tik/O=ethz/PRMD=SWITCH/ADMD=ARCOM/C=CH/@MHS>
	<MeTxUSu0ts4jMcd0sC@alw.nih.gov>
	<EeU2WkP0BwxHMhN_V2@transarc.com>

Excerpts from mail: 5-Aug-92 Re: ATK-ODIF Converters
Mark_Sherman@transarc.co (478+0)

> I doubt that the translators work with the latest version of ATK since
> ATK moved on and no one maintained the translators. Howevr, I disagree
> with the statement "they are incapable of retaining both style
> information and formatting information in bi-directional document
> interchange." One of the objectives/results that distinguished the
> Expres work from other ODA work was the retention of both style and
> formatting information, instead of just formatting information.
> 		-Mark


Well, yes and no.  Except for nested content, inter-line spacing, and a
few other complicated features, the EXPRESS translators are capable of
translating documents from ATK to ODA, and back again.  But this
represents a closed system of translation, which isn't of much practical
use for general document translation applications.  

What's lacking in the translators provided from the EXPRESS project is
the ability to translate to a well-known intermediate data format, and
back again.   The translators once included with the Andrew distribution
can translate to and from troff and Interleaf, but only partially. 
Either style structure is lost, or formatting information is lost.

Unless I'm mistaken, there is no way to convert from
ATK-->intermediate--->ODA, and back without significant loss of
information.  So from the standpoint of using ODA as a tool with which
to perform conversion from ATK to other useful data formats, its not
very practical.

-Bob
\enddata{text822, 93014}
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Date: Wed,  5 Aug 1992 17:39:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: Mark_Sherman@transarc.com
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To: Bob Dew <Bob_Dew@alw.nih.gov>
Subject: Re: ATK-ODIF Converters
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 <315*/S=wilde/OU=komsys/OU=tik/O=ethz/PRMD=SWITCH/ADMD=ARCOM/C=CH/@MHS>
	<MeTxUSu0ts4jMcd0sC@alw.nih.gov>
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I agree -- the EXPRES translators were research experiments, not commercial 
systems. We explicitly tried to do the complicated things (like style systems) 
to show how they could be done, with the (misguided?) hope that commercial 
systems would take up the design experience and apply it. I wouldn't use them 
for day to day translation between, say, ATK and Interleaf, but [plug follows] 
I  would recommend the book about our experiences if someone wanted to figure 
out how to approach some of the design issues. I leave it as an exercise to 
the reader as to what the rest of the world is doing. 


\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from mail: 5-Aug-92 Re: ATK-ODIF Converters Bob 
Dew@alw.nih.gov (1548*)}


\quotation{Unless I'm mistaken, there is no way to convert from

}\quotation{ATK-->intermediate--->ODA, and back without significant loss of

}\quotation{information.  So from the standpoint of using ODA as a tool with 
which

}\quotation{to perform conversion from ATK to other useful data formats, its 
not

}\quotation{very practical.

}
Actually, the ATK->ODA->ATK round trip worked quite well. But why bother? It 
was the ATK->ODA->foo->ODA->ATK that had problems, depending on the 
capabilities of the ODA->foo->ODA pathway.


		-Mark


--------------------------------------------------------------------

Mark Sherman          Position: Senior Technical Marketing Executive

Transarc Corp.        Internet: mss@transarc.com

707 Grant Street                +1-412-338-4420

Pittsburgh, PA 15219       Fax: +1-412-338-4404

--------------------------------------------------------------------

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To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu

Is it possible to add color to ATK applications?

Is there any experience in ATK+graPHIGS applications?

Alfredo
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\begindata{text,18574996}
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I doubt that the translators work with the latest version of ATK since ATK
moved on and no one maintained the translators. Howevr, I disagree with the
statement "they are incapable of retaining both style information and
formatting information in bi-directional document interchange." One of the
objectives/results that distinguished the Expres work from other ODA work was
the retention of both style and formatting information, instead of just
formatting information.

		-Mark

\enddata{text,18574996}

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To: "Andrew Mailing List at CMU" <info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: ATK-ODIF Converters

I have a question concerning the ATK Text to ODIF (and reverse)
Converters available from the EXPRES Project. Does anybody have these
things up and running with Andrew 5.1? I only have the book of
Rosenberg, Sherman, Marks and Akkerhuis (called "Multi-media Document
Translation, ODA and the EXPRES Project" from the Springer-Verlag),
where can I get the software and does it work with 5.1 (we have Sun 3's
with SunOS 4.0.1)? Thanks for any answers and help,

Erik Wilde
Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (ETH Zuerich)
Institut fuer Technische Informatik und Kommunikationssysteme (TIK)
ETH-Zentrum, Haldeneggsteig 4, IFW C27.1, CH - 8092 Zuerich
Phone: +41-1-2547009  Fax: +41-1-2623973  Mail: wilde@komsys.tik.ethz.ch
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Date: 5 Aug 92 21:16:06 GMT
From: ALW.NIH.GOV!rdew@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU  (Bob Dew)
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Subject: Re: ATK-ODIF Converters
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Excerpts from mail: 5-Aug-92 Re: ATK-ODIF Converters
Mark_Sherman@transarc.co (478+0)

> I doubt that the translators work with the latest version of ATK since
> ATK moved on and no one maintained the translators. Howevr, I disagree
> with the statement "they are incapable of retaining both style
> information and formatting information in bi-directional document
> interchange." One of the objectives/results that distinguished the
> Expres work from other ODA work was the retention of both style and
> formatting information, instead of just formatting information.
> 		-Mark


Well, yes and no.  Except for nested content, inter-line spacing, and a
few other complicated features, the EXPRESS translators are capable of
translating documents from ATK to ODA, and back again.  But this
represents a closed system of translation, which isn't of much practical
use for general document translation applications.  

What's lacking in the translators provided from the EXPRESS project is
the ability to translate to a well-known intermediate data format, and
back again.   The translators once included with the Andrew distribution
can translate to and from troff and Interleaf, but only partially. 
Either style structure is lost, or formatting information is lost.

Unless I'm mistaken, there is no way to convert from
ATK-->intermediate--->ODA, and back without significant loss of
information.  So from the standpoint of using ODA as a tool with which
to perform conversion from ATK to other useful data formats, its not
very practical.

-Bob
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\begindata{text,538773316}
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\template{messages}
\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from netnews.comp.soft-sys.andrew: 5-Aug-92 (none) 
Alfredo Pflucker@pervm1. (113)}


\quotation{Is it possible to add color to ATK applications?

}
Yes, you can program ATK applications to use colors.  The reason there isn't 
more use of colors is that the people who developed ATK didn't have color 
monitors until the very end of the lifespan of the ITC.  Everyone really used 
monochrome RT's until recently.


Now that many have RS/6000 with 8bit displays, you'll see more and more color 
in Andrew.


You can set a foreground color like this:


fooview_SetForeground(fooview, "green", 0, 0, 0);


or 


fooview_SetForegroundColor(fooview, NULL, r, g, b) 


... where (r, g, b) are the individual color-component intensities (int long) 
.


After setting the foreground, you can draw text, lines, and other graphics in 
the desired color.  Of course, for any graphical element that uses color, 
there should be a corresponding preference that allows the user to change the 
default.


I don't know much about GraPHIGS.


Gary Keim

Andrew Consortium


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Date: Fri,  7 Aug 1992 10:42:58 +1200 (NZST)
From: Jason Haar <cctr127@cantua.canterbury.ac.nz>
Subject: fonts
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu
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<nl>
I really don't feel right about bringing this up here, as it is a pretty lame =
question, but I'd <underline>really</underline> like to know how to change the=
 font-size within <bold>messages.<nl>
<nl>
</bold>Now, I have messed around with fonts within ATK, but none seem to affec=
t the actual article windows in messages. I can get larger fonts for mail mess=
age listings/etc, but the window/box/whatever which actually has the mail mess=
age in it stays the same small font. I've got a 16-in monitor, and the default=
 font is really bad on the eyes (IMHO) - same goes for the <bold>messages-send=
 </bold>window. <nl>
<nl>
Also, none of the other fonts I've tried really mesh in as well with ATK as th=
e default does, so I'm also hoping that someone else out there has discovered =
a 18pt plus font that looks good.<nl>
<nl>
- See what I mean - pretty lame ;-)<nl>
<nl>
Cheers<nl>
<nl>
Jason Haar.
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Message-ID: <weUP6XW00Vs94oPkh0@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Thu,  6 Aug 1992 19:11:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: Gary Keim <gk5g+@andrew.cmu.edu>
X-Andrew-Message-Size: 946+0
Content-Type: X-BE2; 12
To: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: fonts
In-Reply-To: <8eUOfmW4hFs28o8_4t@cantua.canterbury.ac.nz>
References: <8eUOfmW4hFs28o8_4t@cantua.canterbury.ac.nz>

\begindata{text,538953480}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
\define{bold
menu:[Font~1,Bold~10]
attr:[FontFace Bold Int Set]}
\define{underline
menu:[Font~1,Underline~41]
attr:[Flags Underline Int Set]}
\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from misc: 7-Aug-92 fonts Jason Haar@cantua.canter 
(798+0)}


\quotation{I really don't feel right about bringing this up here, as it is a 
pretty lame question, but I'd \underline{really} like to know how to change 
the font-size within \bold{messages.

}}\bold{
}Good question.  While trying to determine the answer I came across a bug in 
the 'Set Options' feature of messages.  


First,  You can change the font behavior through the messages S\italic{et 
Options} menu item on the \italic{other} menu card in the message reading 
window.  Go to the Default Font Family and Default Font Size items in the 
list.  Unfortunately, messages doesn't notice if you have a .preferences file 
and puts the new prefs in preferences (without the dot).  That's a bug. If you 
have a .preferences, just cut the new prefs out of preferences and paste into 
.preferences.


Here's what gets added when you ask for a 16 pt andysans font:


messages.FontSize:16

messages.FontFamily:andysans


Gary Keim

Andrew Consortium

\enddata{text,538953480}

\enddata{text822, 116372}
\begindata{text822, 118835}
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Date: 6 Aug 92 23:21:01 GMT
From: cis.ohio-state.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!usc!noiro.acs.uci.edu!gordius!gordius!johnk@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU  (John Kalucki)
Organization: Gordian; Costa Mesa, CA
Subject: Re: compiling andrew for Risc/os 4.52
Message-Id: <1992Aug6.232101.3462@gordian.com>
References: <1992Aug3.165234.14003@sobeco.com>
Sender: info-andrew-request@andrew.cmu.edu
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu

In article <1992Aug3.165234.14003@sobeco.com>, stacy@sobeco.com (Stacy L. Millions) writes:
>
>Hi,
>
>I'm trying to compile andrew for a MIPS running 4.52. This is not
>one of the known platforms. The README file tells me that 
>overhead/class/machdep may "need customization". Now there's an
>understatement for you :-)
>
>Has anyone done the work for Risc/os? If not, any pointers on where
>to start... I have looked at the sgi_mips stuff but Risc/os does
>not give me a real mmap() so that's out and I looked at the dec_mips*
>but since Ultrix is, well, Ultrix this doesn't seem to help me
>much.
>
>In short, HELP! Any takers?
>
>-stacy
>
>-- 
>"In Russia we have a saying,                                   stacy@sobeco.com
>Women are like trucks... and that's it."                        stacy@sobeco.ca
>    - Yakov Schmirnoff                                       uunet!sobeco!stacy

I posted asking basically the same questions about a month ago.
It seems pretty unlikely that no one has compiled Andrew for
the Mips boxes. 

What's also bizzare is that it isn't a 'supported' system type. I
guess Mips hasn't really penetrated CMU, what with all of those
DecStations floating around AC and CS these days.

		-John Kalucki
		johnk@gordian.com
		BS Math-CS '91
\enddata{text822, 118835}
\begindata{text822, 121521}
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Message-Id: <geWBZ_1n1U008Tjft2@lazy.qt.IPA.FhG.de>
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 11:26:34 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Juergen Henke <henke@qt.IPA.FhG.de>
X-Andrew-Message-Size: 445+1
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 
	boundary="Interpart.Boundary.ceWBZ9dn1U00MTjfkj"
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: FLAMES on folders ?

> THIS IS A MESSAGE IN 'MIME' FORMAT.  Your mail reader does not support MIME.
> Please read the first section, which is plain text, and ignore the rest.

--Interpart.Boundary.ceWBZ9dn1U00MTjfkj
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

After long resistance i jumped into FLAMES (after beeing on vacation i
found over 1000 messages in my mailbox...).

Seems to work fine (as described in the help file) for new arriving
mails, but there's no hint how to apply the filtering on messages, wich
are already in a folder - that's the situation with me (as noted above i
got over 1000 messages in my mail folder).

So - just to say it:  Please, Help !


Many thanks in advance

	J|rgen

[An Andrew ToolKit view (layoutview) was included here, but could not be
displayed.]

--Interpart.Boundary.ceWBZ9dn1U00MTjfkj
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; 
	boundary="Alternative.Boundary.ceWBZ9dn1U00ETjfgT"

--Alternative.Boundary.ceWBZ9dn1U00ETjfgT
Content-type: text/richtext; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

After long resistance i jumped into <bold>FLAMES</bold> (after beeing on vacat=
ion i found over <red><bold>1000</bold></red> messages in my mailbox...).<nl>
<nl>
Seems to work fine (as described in the help file) for <underline>new arriving=
 mails</underline>, but there's no hint how to apply the filtering on messages=
, wich are already in a folder - that's the situation with me (as noted above =
i got over <bold><red>1000</red></bold> messages in my mail folder).<nl>
<nl>
So - just to say it:  <bigger><bold><bigger>Please, Help !</bigger></bold></bi=
gger><nl>
<nl>
<nl>
Many thanks in advance<nl>
<nl>
	J=FCrgen<nl>
<nl>

--Alternative.Boundary.ceWBZ9dn1U00ETjfgT
Content-type: application/andrew-inset

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<130,0,385,0,V>
\begindata{filler,19407468}
\V 2
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\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
\define{paragraph
menu:[Title~3,Paragraph~23]
attr:[Justification LeftJustified Point 0]
attr:[FontFace Italic Int Set]
attr:[FontFamily AndySans Int 0]}
\smaller{\bold{J\^{|}rgen Henke

}}\smaller{\smaller{\bold{Fraunhofer-Institut f\^{|}r Produktionstechnik u. 
Automatisierung

Nobelstra\^{_}e 12

D-7000 Stuttgart 80}}

\smaller{\bold{Germany

}}}\smaller{\bold{e-mail: juh@ipa.fhg.de  (ATK and MIME mail accepted)\
}}\enddata{text,19397212}
0 19397212 0 0 0 0 
>OBJ< text
>VIEW< textview
>REF< text
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\enddata{filler,19407468}
<14,0,111,0,V>
\begindata{filler,19357036}
\V 2
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2 0 68266 68266 0 0 120 120
bits 19466120 120 120
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--Alternative.Boundary.ceWBZ9dn1U00ETjfgT
Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


--Alternative.Boundary.ceWBZ9dn1U00ETjfgT--

--Interpart.Boundary.ceWBZ9dn1U00MTjfkj--
\enddata{text822, 121521}
\begindata{text822, 127427}
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Message-Id: <AeWUj4e3fW41A4gUtT@zeus.cs.kun.nl>
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 09:14:12 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Harco de Hilster <harcoh@zeus.cs.kun.nl>
X-Andrew-Message-Size: 932+0
Content-Type: X-BE2; 12
If-Type-Unsupported: send
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: FLAMES on folders ?
In-Reply-To: <geWBZ_1n1U008Tjft2@lazy.qt.IPA.FhG.de>
References: <geWBZ_1n1U008Tjft2@lazy.qt.IPA.FhG.de>

\begindata{text,1823848}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{default}
\define{global

attr:[FontSize ConstantFontSize Point 12]}
\define{itemize
menu:[Region~4,Itemize~31]
attr:[LeftMargin LeftMargin Inch 32768]}
\define{enumerate
menu:[Region~4,Enumerate~30]
attr:[LeftMargin LeftMargin Inch 32768]}
\define{programexample
menu:[Region~4,ProgramExample~13]
attr:[LeftMargin LeftMargin Inch 32768]
attr:[Justification LeftJustified Point 0]
attr:[FontFace FixedFace Int Set]
attr:[FontFamily AndyType Int 0]}
\define{excerptedcaption

attr:[LeftMargin LeftMargin Inch 32768]
attr:[RightMargin RightMargin Inch 32768]
attr:[FontFace Bold Int Set]
attr:[FontFace Italic Int Set]}
\define{literal
menu:[Region~4,Literal~62]
attr:[Flags PassThru Int Set]}
\define{black
menu:[Color,Black]
attr:['color' 'Black']}
\define{red
menu:[Color,Red]
attr:['color' 'Red']}
\define{green
menu:[Color,Green]
attr:['color' 'Green']}
\define{blue
menu:[Color,Blue]
attr:['color' 'Blue']}
\define{magenta
menu:[Color,Magenta]
attr:['color' 'Magenta']}
\define{cyan
menu:[Color,Cyan]
attr:['color' 'Cyan']}
\define{yellow
menu:[Color,Yellow]
attr:['color' 'Yellow']}
\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from andrew.mailing-list: 12-Aug-92 FLAMES on 
folders ? Juergen Henke@qt.ipa.fhg (445+1)}



\quotation{After long resistance i jumped into FLAMES (after beeing on 
vacation i

found over 1000 messages in my mailbox...).


Seems to work fine (as described in the help file) for new arriving

mails, but there's no hint how to apply the filtering on messages, wich

are already in a folder - that's the situation with me (as noted above i

got over 1000 messages in my mail folder).


So - just to say it:  Please, Help !



Many thanks in advance


	J|rgen


}I think it is as simple as copying your mail from ~/.MESSAGES/mail to 
~/Mailbox. 


Good luck,


\typewriter{=================================================

Harco de Hilster       |  K  K   U   U   NN   N

University of Nijmegen |  KK     U   U   N N  N

The Netherlands        |  K K    U   U   N  N N

harcoh@cs.kun.nl       |  K  K    UUU    N   NN

=================================================

}\enddata{text,1823848}

\enddata{text822, 127427}
\begindata{text822, 131060}
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Message-Id: <IeWbrQS3fW4141ippJ@zeus.cs.kun.nl>
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 17:21:00 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Harco de Hilster <harcoh@zeus.cs.kun.nl>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
To: "Info-Andrew" <info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Support for non-unix ATK clients?

Hi,

I would like to know what the plans are for better support for non-unix
clients in ATK.

I posted a similar question some time ago, and got real nice help from
Karam Farshchi from special-projects, but it didn't solve my problems.

The PC and Mac version of VUI use a different snap protocol and
guardian, and the servers still have AFS dependencies in their code (we
use NFS). I haven't got them to work yet.
Even if they would work, they can only handle plain text. That makes it
difficult to put any formatted information on our bboards (like very
simple table's with class schedules).

My second best solution was to use MacX on the Mac's, so that they would
be able to use messages. This was not a very good solution since MacX is
slow, and Mac users do not find messages easy to use.

Then there is a conversion problem. Most of our documentation is in
MS-Word format and some is in TeX. The RTF translators in the contrib
directory don't work at all (in either direction). What I used so far is
the Ness script 'fromrtf.n' that produces reasonable output with simple
RTF documents, but it is not good enough for real use.

Basically:  it's very hard to convert to AMS in a mixed environment if
there is no good support for non-unix clients.

Are there any plans for more clever Mac/PC clients?
Is there a good translator for RTF->ATK?
Does any one have a description of the RTF format?


Any help would be appreciated,

Harco.
\enddata{text822, 131060}
\begindata{text822, 134065}
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	(contact usenet@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU if you have questions)
Date: 11 Aug 92 01:01:41 GMT
From: adobe!usenet@decwrl.dec.com  (Zalman Stern)
Organization: Adobe Systems Incorporated
Subject: Re: compiling andrew for Risc/os 4.52
Message-Id: <1992Aug11.010141.4033@adobe.com>
References: <1992Aug6.232101.3462@gordian.com>
Sender: info-andrew-request@andrew.cmu.edu
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu

[People ask about ATK on systems from MIPSco running MIPS' very own version  
of UNIX: RISC/os.]
The first week I worked at MIPS I got Andrew up and running. Its probably  
still sitting on a server there somewhere. (Post to comp.sys.mips and see if  
someone will dig it up out of my home directory :-):-)) I never got the time  
to put together a set of patches and when I left, the last thing I was  
thinking about was saving ATK crud.

The lastest version of the pmax doload.c ought to run on RISC/os 4.52. (I  
originally wrote it on my Magnum running 4.52 and then played telnet with  
Bill Cattey to get it working on a pmax at MIT.) If there are problems  
compiling it or running it let me know, I'll do what I can. (I don't have  
access to MIPS hardware anymore.) Also, somewhere in im.c there is a select  
which had a timeval with 999,999,999 seconds as its wait value. This has to  
be changed so that the seconds times 100 is less than maxint. (Which should  
probably be fixed in general.) Otherwise, ATK will run but it will spin and  
eat CPU time. (And of course you want to use BSD everything on the MIPS  
platform... Though I never did get the pty code in typescript to work.)

If you do RISC/os 5.0, start with Guy Harris' SysVr4 dynamic loader code for  
the Sun SPARC. (Keep the assembly from the pmax but use the SysVr4 generic  
doload.c.)
--
Zalman Stern		   zalman@adobe.com		    (415) 962 3824
Adobe Systems, 1585 Charleston Rd., POB 7900, Mountain View, CA 94039-7900
  "Yeah. Ask 'em if they'll upgrade my shifters too." Bill Watterson
\enddata{text822, 134065}
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Date: 11 Aug 92 22:09:39 GMT
From: auspex-gw!guy@uunet.uu.net  (Guy Harris)
Organization: Auspex Systems, Santa Clara
Subject: Re: compiling andrew for Risc/os 4.52
Message-Id: <14002@auspex-gw.auspex.com>
References: <1992Aug6.232101.3462@gordian.com>, <1992Aug11.010141.4033@adobe.com>
Sender: info-andrew-request@andrew.cmu.edu
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu

>If you do RISC/os 5.0, start with Guy Harris' SysVr4 dynamic loader code for  
>the Sun SPARC.

I.e., RISC/os 5.0 has "dlopen()", "dlsym()", and company?  If not, my code
won't work, as it's built atop them.

(My code was actually developed under SunOS 4.1[.x], which has its own
implementation of AT&T's "dlopen()"/"dlsym()" stuff, but one of my
motivations for it was to keep people from running off and rolling their
own dynamic loader code to read and relocate ELF files in SVR4.)

BTW, if other bits of RISC/os 5.0 are SVR4-flavored (e.g., the pseudo-tty
stuff), the various people doing SVR4 ATK ports, including RISC/os 5.0
ports, might want to get together, so that N people don't independently
do pseudo-tty support, dynamic linking support, etc..  I think somebody
at some AT&T site was looking at an SVR4 port.
\enddata{text822, 136964}
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Date: 12 Aug 92 21:18:12 GMT
From: adobe!usenet@decwrl.dec.com  (Zalman Stern)
Organization: Adobe Systems Incorporated
Subject: Re: compiling andrew for Risc/os 4.52
Message-Id: <1992Aug12.211812.19299@adobe.com>
References: <14002@auspex-gw.auspex.com>
Sender: info-andrew-request@andrew.cmu.edu
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu

In article <14002@auspex-gw.auspex.com> guy@Auspex.COM (Guy Harris) writes:
> >If you do RISC/os 5.0, start with Guy Harris' SysVr4 dynamic loader code  
for  
> >the Sun SPARC.
> 
> I.e., RISC/os 5.0 has "dlopen()", "dlsym()", and company?  If not, my code
> won't work, as it's built atop them.

It has a dlfcn.h and a library containing dlopen, dlsym etc... I never got a  
chance to test them out though. They are built on MIPS' own Dynamic Shared  
Object (DSO) technology which is somewhat different from Sun's or AT&T's.  
That is, dlopen/dlsym are library routines written in terms of a different  
MIPS only interface (consisting of routines with "rld_" in front of them if  
I recall). I suppose if the SysVr4 compatibility code doesn't work, you can  
either bug report it or use the lower level DSO interfaces. (I have no  
reason to believe dlsym/dlopen are broken though.)

Please don't mention pty's and signals under RISC/os. Just thinking about it  
makes me ill.
--
Zalman Stern		   zalman@adobe.com		    (415) 962 3824
Adobe Systems, 1585 Charleston Rd., POB 7900, Mountain View, CA 94039-7900
  "Yeah. Ask 'em if they'll upgrade my shifters too." Bill Watterson
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Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 17:40:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: Bob Dew <rdew+@alw.nih.gov>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
To: "Info-Andrew" <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>,
    Harco de Hilster <harcoh@zeus.cs.kun.nl>
Subject: Re: Support for non-unix ATK clients?
In-Reply-To: <IeWbrQS3fW4141ippJ@zeus.cs.kun.nl>
References: <IeWbrQS3fW4141ippJ@zeus.cs.kun.nl>

> The RTF translators in the contrib
directory don't work at all (in either direction). 


We use these regularly for translating documents between Macs running
WordPerfect and UNIX hosts running Andrew's ez editor. 

These translators don't work with complete fidelity, but we've found
them most useful for basic document translation.  They've been a very
handy adjunct to the toolkit for us, as they let our Mac users exchange
formatted material with UNIX Workstations which aren't licensed to run
WordPerfect applications. 

Did you have specific problems with these translators, or did they
really not work "at all"?  Maybe they were built or installed
incorrectly?

-Bob

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Date: 13 Aug 92 13:49:47 GMT
From: pitt!cs.pitt.edu@gatech.edu  (Ken Mitchum)
Organization: Computer Science Dept., University of Pittsburgh
Subject: Medical software using Andrew
Message-Id: <16042@pitt.UUCP>
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I would appreciate hearing from anyone developing medical
software using the Andrew Toolkit.

 -Ken Mitchum MD
 km@cs.pitt.edu
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Date: 13 Aug 92 21:53:58 GMT
From: auspex-gw!guy@uunet.uu.net  (Guy Harris)
Organization: Auspex Systems, Santa Clara
Subject: Re: compiling andrew for Risc/os 4.52
Message-Id: <14037@auspex-gw.auspex.com>
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>It has a dlfcn.h and a library containing dlopen, dlsym etc... I never got a  
>chance to test them out though.

Hmm.  At one point, I'd asked somebody at MIPS whether they were going
to have it, and they indicated it wasn't coming out in the first release
with the dynamic-linking stuff (5.0, I'd assumed), but would come out
later.  I guess they decided not to wait....

>Please don't mention pty's and signals under RISC/os. Just thinking about it  
>makes me ill.

Is it that SVR4's pty stuff has problems (it does - folks at Sun fixed
many of them for SunOS 5.0, and sent the fixes back to AT&T, and
hopefully they'll show up in a subsequent SVR4 release), or that RISC/os
5.0's pty stuff isn't SVR4's and has problems of its own?
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Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 12:55:04 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Rob Duin <robd@zeus.cs.kun.nl>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
To: "Info-Andrew" <info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: print page and TOC

I have run into some strange problems. When I select the Printer Setup
dialog box, and choose the option "Print table of contents (TOC) with
documents" and try to print the document, I do not get any TOC. Only the
full document appears on the printer.

Another problem comes with preview. From the preview window I choose the
Print Page option. Nothing happens!! Is this known, and will this be
solved?

When dealing with larger documents these options are very important,
using EZ and ATK.

System: SUN4.1.2, NFS, ATK 5.1, Ez 7.0, GROFF

Does anyone know more about this? Thanks in advance.

Rob.
=======================================
= Rob Duin 
= email: robd@cs.kun.nl
= kamer A5009, tel. 080 - 652169
= Universitaire School voor Informatica
= Katholieke Universiteit Nijmegen
= 6525 ED   Nijmegen
=======================================
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To: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>
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\begindata{text,19157032}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from internet.other.info-andrew: 13-Aug-92 Medical 
software using Andrew Ken Mitchum@gatech.edu (127)}


\quotation{I would appreciate hearing from anyone developing medical

}\quotation{software using the Andrew Toolkit.

}
\quotation{ -Ken Mitchum MD

}\quotation{ km@cs.pitt.edu

}

Ditto!


Mike\
\enddata{text,19157032}

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To: Gary Keim <gk5g+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: environment/style flag wish list
Cc: Fred Hansen <wjh+@andrew.cmu.edu>

\begindata{text,539206408}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
\define{center

attr:[Justification Centered Point 0]}
\define{h

attr:[FontFamily rom Int 0]
attr:[FontSize ConstantFontSize Point 6]}
\define{a

attr:[Script PreviousScriptMovement Point -1]
attr:['color' '#F0A000']}
\define{b

attr:[Script PreviousScriptMovement Point -1]
attr:['color' '#E08000']}
\define{c

attr:[Script PreviousScriptMovement Point -1]
attr:['color' '#D06000']}
\define{d

attr:[Script PreviousScriptMovement Point -1]
attr:['color' '#C05000']}
\define{e

attr:[Script PreviousScriptMovement Point -2]
attr:['color' '#B03000']}
\define{f

attr:[Script PreviousScriptMovement Point 6]
attr:['color' '#A02000']}
\define{g

attr:['color' '#CD8500']}
\define{footnote

attr:[Flags OverBar Int Set]
attr:[FontSize PreviousFontSize Point -2]}
\bold{-- Background Info --

}
\bold{environment}s have a begin-flag and an end-flag, which can be set by
\typewriter{environment_SetStyle(env,boolean,boolean)}.


This works great for styles that you know ahead of time \italic{should} or
\italic{should not} grab text inserted at their boundaries.


\typewriter{\leftindent{int \bold{\underline{function_style}}();

\bold{   /\\            /\\

  TRUE          TRUE

}
blah();  \italic{\underline{// cmmnt2NL_style}}

\bold{        /\\               /\\

       FALSE            TRUE

}
blah(); \italic{\underline{/* comment_style */}}

\bold{       /\\                 /\\

      FALSE              FALSE

}}}
The trouble comes in whenever those styles get Cut ot Copied.
 \italic{\bigger{The flag information is LOST!}}


\bold{-- Reasoning --

}
I'm guessing that trying to store that flag information with each and every
\italic{environment} would be ugly and inefficient.  As an "adequate
substitute", perhaps the necessary information could be consolidated as part
of the \italic{style} definition instead.


\bold{-- Proposal --

}
I think that \underline{\bold{\bigger{styles}}}, in their template definition,
should be able to \underline{\bold{\bigger{define what their begin- and
end-flags are}}} \smaller{(the same way they remember _KeepPriorNL and
_KeepNextNL)}.


Example:
\footnote{\
\begindata{fnote,539244296}
\textdsversion{12}
\define{bold
menu:[Font~1,Bold~10]
attr:[FontFace Bold Int Set]}


\\define\{cmmnt2NL

attr:[FontFace Italic Int Set]

attr:[\bold{Flags Beginning Int Clear}]

attr:[\bold{Flags Ending Int Set}]\}

...or somesuch\
\enddata{fnote,539244296}
\view{fnotev,539244296,17,0,0}}


\bold{-- Questions --

}
Anybody already \italic{doing} this, or something similar?

Is my reasoning bogus? (did I miss something?)

Anybody have reasons why it ought NOT be done? (better ideas?)

Anybody have time to do it?


\smaller{(If that's 4 big "no"'s, I'll give it a shot myself; just wanted to
check in first)

}
Waiting to hear from you...

\center{
\h{\f{R\e{o\d{b\c{er\b{t K\a{emme}tmu}el}l}e}r

}\g{rskm@rchland

3-4968

}}}\enddata{text,539206408}

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Subject: SNAP, remote message servers

Hey folx.<nl>
<nl>
I'm thinking of setting up our site such that <bold>messages</bold> uses the r=
emote message server facilities.  The hope is that this will cut down on the s=
ize of the application performing the actual reading of the mail. This would a=
llow more people to run messages in the timesharing-like system that we have h=
ere.<nl>
<nl>
Does anyone have any experience of running SNAP with the basic andrew environm=
ent (i.e. no AMDS or suchlike)?  Any pitfalls that I should know about? Is it =
even worth it---how much saving would I get? Is there any real documentation o=
n setting it up?<nl>
<nl>
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e to get Macintosh/PC interfaces to the SNAP mechanism.<nl>
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Nick<nl>
Nick Williams                          E-mail: njw@cs.city.ac.uk (MIME and ATK=
)<nl>
Systems Architecture Research Centre,  Tel: +44 71 477 8551<nl>
London, EC1V 0HB                       Fax: +44 71 477 8587<nl>
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Date: 21 Aug 92 02:45:55 GMT
From: munnari.oz.au!bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au!brolga!ggm@uunet.uu.net  (George Michaelson)
Organization: Prentice Centre, University of Queensland
Subject: shrinking the installed andrews down
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So I have ez and the inserts working fine, I guess I might
want to keep messages alive in case I ever work out how
to sigue it into local mail. console doesn't look big enough
to worry about.

do I need the .ch and .ih files in /usr/andrew/include for
runtime reasons? its about 8Mb deep. 

can I tell simply if anything under dlib/atk is needed by
another runtime-loaded resource?

	-George

--
                         George Michaelson
G.Michaelson@cc.uq.oz.au The Prentice Centre      | There's no  market for
                         University of Queensland | hippos in Philadelphia
Phone: +61 7 365 4079    QLD Australia 4072       |          -Bertold Brecht
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Subject: More checks on size of ATK applications

\begindata{text,1771432}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}


Well, I'm still trying to cut down the size of ATK apps.


As Nathaniel points out, much of the overhead in the applications is from the 
ATK itself, and the message server business with \bold{messages} will only 
decrease the size in a minor way. However in the SunOS environment, where the 
`.do' files really use the SunOS dynamic library mechanism, surely it'd be 
better to have the statload business in runapp eliminated and make everything 
dynamic (including the linking of the X11 libraries, etc).


This way, it'd take an extra micro-moment to start up the application, which 
people wouldn't \italic{really} notice, but most of the application could be 
shared between processes;  unless I'm wrong, dynamic linking of libraries 
allows applications to share the text image of the libraries, so cutting down 
on swap size.  Hence the 900 odd K of runapp could be cut down fairly 
massively.


Am I wrong?


Nick Williams                          E-mail: njw@cs.city.ac.uk (MIME and 
ATK)

Systems Architecture Research Centre,  Tel: +44 71 477 8551

London, EC1V 0HB                       Fax: +44 71 477 8587

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To: info-andrew@ANDREW.CMU.EDU, Nick Williams <njw@cs.city.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: More checks on size of ATK applications
Cc: daves@compsci.liverpool.ac.uk
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Excerpts from mail: 21-Aug-92 More checks on size of ATK .. Nick
Williams@uk.ac.city (1089)


> Well, I'm still trying to cut down the size of ATK apps.

> As Nathaniel points out, much of the overhead in the applications is
> from the ATK itself, and the message server business with messages will
> only decrease the size in a minor way. However in the SunOS environment,
> where the `.do' files really use the SunOS dynamic library mechanism,
> surely it'd be better to have the statload business in runapp eliminated
> and make everything dynamic (including the linking of the X11 libraries,
> etc).

> This way, it'd take an extra micro-moment to start up the application,
> which people wouldn't really notice, but most of the application could
> be shared between processes;  unless I'm wrong, dynamic linking of
> libraries allows applications to share the text image of the libraries,
> so cutting down on swap size.  Hence the 900 odd K of runapp could be
> cut down fairly massively.

> Am I wrong?

> Nick Williams                          E-mail: njw@cs.city.ac.uk (MIME and ATK)
> Systems Architecture Research Centre,  Tel: +44 71 477 8551
> London, EC1V 0HB                       Fax: +44 71 477 8587


We have successfully done this on our Hp 700's and runapp has reduced
from over 1.1 Mbytes to 135kbytes, and everything seems to work well.  I
certainly do not notice any slow-down.

Martin Beer

Dr. Martin Beer,
Department of Computer Science,		Telephone 051-794-3672
University of Liverpool,		Fax: 051-794-3715
Chadwick Tower, P.O. Box 147,           EMail mdb@uk.ac.liverpool.compsci
LIVERPOOL.  L69 3BX. United Kingdom.
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Date: 21 Aug 92 18:02:31 GMT
From: auspex-gw!guy@uunet.uu.net  (Guy Harris)
Organization: Auspex Systems, Santa Clara
Subject: Re: More checks on size of ATK applications
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>However in the SunOS environment,
>where the `.do' files really use the SunOS dynamic library mechanism,

Yes, under SunOS 4.1[.x].  No, under SunOS 4.0[.x] (or 3.x, but 3.x
didn't have the dynamic linking mechanisms); 4.0[.x] has dynamic
libraries, but its dynamic linking mechanism didn't have dynamic
run-time loading.

>This way, it'd take an extra micro-moment to start up the application,
>which people wouldn't really notice, but most of the application could
>be shared between processes;  unless I'm wrong, dynamic linking of
>libraries allows applications to share the text image of the libraries,

It does - *and* allows them to share the text image of stuff loaded at
run-time as well; however:

>Hence the 900 odd K of runapp could be
>cut down fairly massively.

"runapp" was, at least in part, cooked up as "shared libraries for
systems that don't have them" - all applications built atop "runapp"
will share that part of ATK statically linked into "runapp".
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Subject: Question about overhead/mail/lib/valhost.c.

\begindata{text,18902584}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
On my DECStation, messages was always saying that it could not validate 
hostnames that my VAX and RT could.


John Carr and I have traced the problem to the following block of code in 
overhead/mail/lib/valhost.c:


\leftindent{\typewriter{\smaller{    n = res_SEARCH(InName, C_IN, wantedType, 
(char *)&answer, sizeof(answer));

#if (res_NEWSEARCHSTYLE == 0)

    if (n < 0) return TryAgain;

#else /* #if (res_NEWSEARCHSTYLE == 0) */

    if ((n <= 0 && hp->rcode == 14) || h_errno == 0 || h_errno == TRY_AGAIN) 
return TryAgain;

    if (h_errno == NO_RECOVERY) return NoRecovery;   /* e.g., malloc failed */

#endif /* #if (res_NEWSEARCHSTYLE == 0) */

}}}
The || h_errno == 0  clause is causing a premature return on the DECMIPS 
Ultrix 4.2 platform.


The definition of h_errno, as reported in /usr/include/netdb.h is:


\leftindent{\typewriter{\smaller{/*

 * Error return codes from gethostbyname() and gethostbyaddr()

 * (left in extern int h_errno).

 */


#define       HOST_NOT_FOUND  1 /* Authoritative Answer Host not found */

#define       TRY_AGAIN       2 /* Non-Authoritive Host not found, or 
SERVERFAIL */

#define       NO_RECOVERY     3 /* Non recoverable errors, FORMERR, REFUSED, 
NOTIMP */

#define       NO_DATA         4 /* Valid name, no data record of requested 
type*/

#define       NO_ADDRESS      NO_DATA         /* no address, look for MX 
record*/

}}}
The zero value was being set on the Ultrix machine, but not on the VAX and RT. 
 It appears that the zero value is not a valid thing to look for.


The test for h_errno == 0 was added by Craig Everhart in CMU rev 2.8 with the 
comment:


revision 2.8

date: 89/07/18 16:44:35;  author: cfe;  state: Exp;  lines added/del: 3/1

A try at fixing bogus persistent host name validations.


I think the clause should be deleted.


Any objections?


-wdc

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\begindata{text,18733100}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
I'd be much happier about deleting such a block of code if you could try your 
modification (by building ``valhost.test'' and trying it out, running it as an 
executable and feeding it sample host names) on the various platforms in 
question.  Unfortunately, the code was changed in response to seeing some 
vendors' work on error returns from their gethostbyname() compatibility 
routines, or the supporting library procedures.  Note that this code calls 
res_search(), not gethostbyname().


There's a better version of the fix: always use the built-in ``rsearch.c'' 
file and never rely on the vendor's res_search() function.


		Craig

\enddata{text,18733100}

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To: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>, Craig_Everhart@transarc.com
Subject: Re: Question about overhead/mail/lib/valhost.c.
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	<YeaJX8X0BwwtJQVFYo@transarc.com>

Actually, I don't want to delete a whole block, just the clause that
tests against an invalid value for h_errno being zero.

Do you have the test cases that failed before?

I compiled the TESTINGONLYTESTING valhost app.  I tested it against
reasonable and unreasonable host names.  On the DECMIPS the previously
failed valid hosts are ok now.  Invalid hosts are still invalid for the
cases I tested.

I'll check on a couple other hosts, but it will be more meaningful with
your test cases.

-wdc

\enddata{text822, 174274}
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To: "Info-Andrew" <info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: ez-indexes and preview

Hello atk-users,

Is someone outthere using EZ as a document processor, with GROFF?

Sometime ago I asked about the printing of the TOC. I've found
an answer in a mail from Nick Williams (9-th April 1992) on this
mailinglist: a temporary patch from James Clark in the tmac.atk macro,
which works fine.

Now I want to use the ez-index. The index terms are displayed in
the TOC when previewing, but they are not printed. I suspect it is the
same problem as was with the TOC, but I don't know a thing about
nroff, so I don't know what to change in tmac.atk (if the fault is inthere).

Also the previewmenus still don't print a thing.
Does anyone know more about these problems?

Thank you,
Rob Duin.
(email: robd@cs.kun.nl)
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Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 11:27:03 +0200 (CDT)
From: "Z. Horvat" <root@nike.rz.uni-konstanz.de>
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To: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Questions about console


I'm running the Andrew Toolkit on an IBM RS 6000 AIX 3.1.6.
Console seems to have some problems:

- Switching from the initial console display to another type of console
yields in the cursor beeing changed to the "clock" symbol, never
returning back to the normal pointer. The stat graphs behave normal.

- Print request are never noticed by console.  I wonder how to make it
peek on the AIX print queue.

- By default, console watches the filesystems / and /usr. I would like
to change this, e.g. to /tmp and /usr. How is this accomplished ?

Thanks in advance for any advice.




------------------------------------
Z. Horvat
Rechenzentrum Universitaet Konstanz
7750 Konstanz
+49(0)7531-88-2405

root@nike.rz.uni-konstanz.de
rzhorv@nyx.uni-konstanz.de
------------------------------------
\enddata{text822, 178752}
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\begindata{text,539115312}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
Read the Help file on LACC - it will explain how you can program your own 
console


\enddata{text,539115312}

\enddata{text822, 181068}
\begindata{text822, 182458}
X-Andrew-Authenticated-As: 469;andrew.cmu.edu;Craig F. Everhart
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Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 10:21:55 -0400 (EDT)
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To: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>,
    Bill Cattey <wdc@Athena.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Question about overhead/mail/lib/valhost.c.
In-Reply-To: <seaN2xYGf047I9BF5m@athena.mit.edu>
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	<YeaJX8X0BwwtJQVFYo@transarc.com>
	<seaN2xYGf047I9BF5m@athena.mit.edu>

\begindata{text,18262436}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
I don't have the test cases any more.  The ``res_NEWSEARCHSTYLE != 0'' code 
was coded to the res_search() function in Bind 4.8.3, which uses h_errno as 
its primary mechanism for returning error conditions to its caller.  In this 
code, h_errno is set to HOST_NOT_FOUND almost immediately; if res_init() 
fails, though, h_errno is left untouched.


Generally, the h_errno values from res_search() in Bind 4.8.3 look like:

	unchanged:

		res_init() failed

	NO_RECOVERY:

		malloc() failed

		other weird cases (REFUSED, FORMERR, NOTIMP)

	TRY_AGAIN:

		res_send() ``failed''--got no answer at all.

		SERVFAIL returned (but no auth-answer check)

		ECONNREFUSED in errno

	HOST_NOT_FOUND:

		NXDOMAIN returned (but no check for authoritative answer)

		(default value if no queries made)

	NO_DATA:

		no answer records (but no auth-answer check)


The code in valhost.c puts an impossible value in the ``hp->rcode'' field of 
the answer buffer to try to detect whether any answer was received, and clears 
h_errno.  Its needs could be met just as well if h_errno were initialized to 
TRY_AGAIN, I suppose.


----------------


The difficult thing to know is what the platform's res_search() code has as 
its error semantics.  As I recall, the ``h_errno == 0'' check was necessary 
for some platform's res_search() implementation, but I don't remember which 
platform.  I believe that the failure mode was that some host names that 
should have been seen as of unknown validity were instead being seen as 
known-wrong.  The mechanism for this error is simple.  The cptres_search() 
routine in overhead/mail/lib/rsearch.c makes a sequence of 
res_mkquery/res_send call pairs, and returns on the first interesting answer 
(anything other than authoritative NXDOMAIN).  The vendors' res_search() 
routines tend to provide somewhat different semantics, not stopping on the 
first interesting answer, but continuing to try other names until a 
HOST_NOT_FOUND or NO_DATA answer was returned.


When I copied the valhost.c processing for use in a piece of test scaffolding 
at Transarc, it became a lot easier to rip out the ``support'' for the 
vendors' res_search() code and just always call cptres_search().  That's the 
path that I would recommend here.  Eliminate the test on ``#ifdef NO_DATA'' in 
valhost.c and take the path that defines res_SEARCH to be cptres_search() 
(defined in rsearch.c) and defines res_NEWSEARCHSTYLE to be zero.


		Craig

\enddata{text,18262436}

\enddata{text822, 182458}
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Date: 21 Aug 92 21:24:10 GMT
From: deccrl!news.crl.dec.com!pa.dec.com!oct17.dfe.dec.com!ryn.mro4.dec.com!rdg.dec.com!uvo.dec.com!e2big.mko.dec.com!engage.pko.dec.com!irenaeus.mlo.dec.com!eje@decwrl.dec.com  (Eric James Ewanco)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Subject: Andrew require AFS?
Message-Id: <1992Aug21.212410.26027@engage.pko.dec.com>
Sender: info-andrew-request@andrew.cmu.edu
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu


Hi, I just found this newgroup.

Maybe this is a dumb question for someone who spend four years at Carnegie
Mellon majoring in computer engineering -- but then again maybe not.

Does ATK/AMDS/AMS etc. require AFS to operate?  Is it reasonable to install
them on a single workstation?

At CMU it seemed that ATK was inextricably linked with AFS, and I couldn't
imagine running ATK/AMS/AMDS without AFS.  But I can't imagine everyone here is
using AFS, or am I wrong?

I should say that by ATK I mean all the ATK applications; messages, ez, bush,
help, etc.

Eric Ewanco
ewanco@kalvin.enet.dec.com
ee0n+@andrew.cmu.edu
--
/=============================================================================\
| Eric Ewanco - Software Engineer     For the rash and outrageous opinions ex-|
| Digital Equipment Corp, Maynard MA  pressed herein I alone am responsible;  |
| ewanco@kalvin.enet.dec.com          they do not belong to DIGITAL(TM).      |
\==============================- 2 Th 2:15 -==================================/
    "...[T]he greatest and most ancient Church known to all, founded and
    organized at Rome by [] Peter and Paul, [is] that Church which has the
    tradition and faith which comes down to us after having been announced
    to men by the Apostles.  For with this Church, because of its superior
    origin, all Churches must agree ...  and it is in her that the
    faithful everywhere have maintained the Apostolic tradition."
       -- St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, c. 180 A.D., 3,3,3.
\enddata{text822, 186363}
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To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu, Nick Williams <njw@cs.city.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: More checks on size of ATK applications
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\begindata{text,1577432}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
\define{global
}
\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from ext.andrew: 21-Aug-92 More checks on size of 
ATK .. Nick Williams@cs.city.ac (1088+0)}


\quotation{Hence the 900 odd K of runapp could be cut down fairly massively.

}
\quotation{Am I wrong?

}
Not at all.  Here's my 24K (SunOS 4.1.1, SPARC) version of EZ:


\example{#include <stdio.h>


#include <class.h>

#include <im.ih>

#include <buffer.ih>

#include <frame.ih>


#ifndef _XLIB_H_

#define Window unsigned long

#define Display char

#endif

#include <xim.ih>


main (ac, av)

     int ac;

     char **av;

\{

  struct xim *xim;

  Window window;

  struct buffer *buffer;


  initclass();


  im_SetProgramName("edit");	/* if this isn't done, im_Create() will 
core-dump.  Dumb.  */


  window = atoi(av[1]);

  buffer = buffer_GetBufferOnFile (av[2], 0);

  xim = xim_New();

  if (!xim_CreateWindow (xim, "localhost"))

    exit(1);

  xim_SetView (xim, frame_Create(buffer));

  im_KeyboardProcessor();

  exit (0);

\}


static initclass ()

\{

#if ((sun)&&(sparc))


#include <sys/fcntl.h>	/* for O_RDWR */


  \{

    int fd;


    /*

     * XXX - force "/dev/zero" to be open as a file descriptor one

     * greater than the first available one, as a workaround for a

     * 4.1 bug (also present in 4.1.1) in the run-time loader.

     * (Fixed in System V Release 4, allegedly.)

     */


    printf ("doing fix for SunOS 4.1...\\n");


    fd = open("/dev/zero", O_RDWR);

    dup(fd);			/* one greater */

    close(fd);

  \}

#endif


  class_Init(AndrewDir("/dlib/atk"));

\}

}

Link it with libclass.a and libutil.a...


Bill

\enddata{text,1577432}

\enddata{text822, 189303}
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Date: 25 Aug 92 07:51:47 GMT
From: gk5g+@andrew.cmu.edu  (Gary Keim)
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Subject: Re: Andrew require AFS?
Message-Id: <8eaZQHC00Woh1FX3kF@andrew.cmu.edu>
References: <1992Aug21.212410.26027@engage.pko.dec.com>
Sender: info-andrew-request@andrew.cmu.edu
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu

Excerpts from netnews.comp.soft-sys.andrew: 21-Aug-92 Andrew require
AFS? Eric James Ewanco@irenae (1515)

> Does ATK/AMDS/AMS etc. require AFS to operate?  Is it reasonable to install
them on a single workstation?

No. Yes.

We just put out a CDROM binary&source release where the binaries were
built without AFS support.  There are bit for the PMAX 3100 on the CD. 
You can ftp the CDROM contents from emsworth.andrew.cmu.edu in the
top-level directory ./cdrom.

Gary Keim
Andrew Consortium
\enddata{text822, 192590}
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Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 23:17:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: Bill Cattey <wdc@Athena.MIT.EDU>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
To: info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Hasn't the message line bogosity gone on long enough?

Who else here is tired of having the contents of the message line
dissappear when their pathname happens to be one character too long?

Isn't there some sensible way this can be fixed?

How about:

making the message line fixed with fonts, un justified?
making the message line two lines tall so that people will get the idea
they really can scroll around in it?

Other ideas?

I know I'm really tired of this.
My users sure are.

-wdc
\enddata{text822, 194433}
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Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 00:45:10 -0400 (EDT)
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Excerpts from netnews.comp.soft-sys.andrew: 26-Aug-92 Hasn't the message
line bog.. Bill Cattey@ATHENA.MIT.E (436)

> Who else here is tired of having the contents of the message line
> dissappear when their pathname happens to be one character too long?

Probably everyone...

Excerpts from netnews.comp.soft-sys.andrew: 26-Aug-92 Hasn't the message
line bog.. Bill Cattey@ATHENA.MIT.E (436)

> Isn't there some sensible way this can be fixed?

Almost certainly.

Excerpts from netnews.comp.soft-sys.andrew: 26-Aug-92 Hasn't the message
line bog.. Bill Cattey@ATHENA.MIT.E (436)

> making the message line fixed with fonts, un justified?

Using non-justified text is a step in the right direction, but is not
sufficient.  I don't see the relevance of fixed vs variable width fonts.

Excerpts from netnews.comp.soft-sys.andrew: 26-Aug-92 Hasn't the message
line bog.. Bill Cattey@ATHENA.MIT.E (436)

> making the message line two lines tall so that people will get the idea
> they really can scroll around in it?

Certainly users should be able to have as many message line lines as
they wish.  Perhaps the default should be one line with a special
scrolling icon to the left.  Also some indication should be present if
the latest message cannot be displayed in the available space.  The
message line area should be dynamically resizable in increments of 1
line.  It should also be possible to limit the number of previous
messages kept, and/or total size of messages kept in the history.

Even if multi-line message lines become standard, programmers should
strive to insure that most messages are only one line long.  If the
message line has to have more than one line all the time it would
represent quite a bit of wasted real estate.

While we're at it how about history based completion for answers?
(Keeping possible answer type completion as well of course.)

-Rob Ryan
Andrew Consortium

\enddata{text822, 196409}
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Date: 26 Aug 92 06:49:03 GMT
From: adobe!usenet@decwrl.dec.com  (Zalman Stern)
Organization: Adobe Systems Incorporated
Subject: Re: Hasn't the message line bogosity gone on long enough?
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[Text redraw improperly line wraps long message lines.]
If it overflows, build a dialog box with a large message line and pop that  
up instead. See how people like that. You could dynamically resize the  
message line instead. Both of these should be relatively easy to do if I  
recall frameview at all. (Which I probably don't).

In general, message lines are a difficult proposition to manage properly in  
a graphical UI. Its 1970's (or perhaps 1960s) technology. I would say that  
effort is better spent building a real dialog manager for ATK. Look at the  
Macintosh Toolbox, MacApp, or MS-Windows for examples.
--
Zalman Stern		   zalman@adobe.com		    (415) 962 3824
Adobe Systems, 1585 Charleston Rd., POB 7900, Mountain View, CA 94039-7900
  "Virtual Reality has nothing on Calvin." Bill Watterson
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Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 12:05:03 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Andrew Ryan <rr2b+@andrew.cmu.edu>
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\begindata{text,538735120}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from internet.other.info-andrew: 26-Aug-92 Re: 
Hasn't the message line.. Zalman Stern@decwrl.dec. (810)}


\quotation{If it overflows, build a dialog box with a large message line and 
pop that  up instead. See how people like that.

}
Unfortunately this can't really cover the case of a input request, since the 
message line could grow substantially during input.


\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from internet.other.info-andrew: 26-Aug-92 Re: 
Hasn't the message line.. Zalman Stern@decwrl.dec. (810)}


\quotation{You could dynamically resize the  

}\quotation{message line instead. Both of these should be relatively easy to 
do if I  

}\quotation{recall frameview at all. (Which I probably don't).}


Yes this could be done without too much hacking on frameview, but the runtime 
cost for the redraws could be prohibitive esp over slow networks.  Another 
possible solution to this might be to give text a notion of horizontal 
scrolling. (though not with a scrollbar please :-)


\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from internet.other.info-andrew: 26-Aug-92 Re: 
Hasn't the message line.. Zalman Stern@decwrl.dec. (810)}


\quotation{In general, message lines are a difficult proposition to manage 
properly in a graphical UI. Its 1970's (or perhaps 1960s) technology. I would 
say that  effort is better spent building a real dialog manager for ATK. Look 
at the  Macintosh Toolbox, MacApp, or MS-Windows for examples.

}
I actually believe one of the wins of ATK and Emacs (gnu and gosling) over 
Macintosh Toolbox and Motif is the fact that they \bold{have }a message line. 
 In the Mac and Motif model, you have to pop up a dialog box for any transient 
message,  obscuring part of a window most probably.  When a message is purely 
informational this is a waste.


-Rob Ryan

Andrew Consortium



\enddata{text,538735120}

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\begindata{text,539138416}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
\define{bold
menu:[Font~1,Bold~10]
attr:[FontFace Bold Int Set]}
\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from internet.other.info-andrew: 26-Aug-92 Re: 
Hasn't the message line.. Robert Andrew Ryan (1674+0)}


\quotation{I actually believe one of the wins of ATK and Emacs (gnu and 
gosling) over Macintosh Toolbox and Motif is the fact that they \bold{have }a 
message line.  In the Mac and Motif model, you have to pop up a dialog box for 
any transient message,  obscuring part of a window most probably. 
\underline{ When a message is purely informational this is a waste.}}


Even when it isn't purely informational - this can be a waste and a nuisance - 
as information needed for answering a prompt could be obscured beneath the 
dialog box.


Of course, it's largely a matter of tast - but that was what the 
DialogPriority preference option was supposed to take care of.


Before the days of Andrew on the XR? tape - the message line used to be a 
scrollable view - and stored past messages up to a certain amount [10?, 20???] 
- this was great for Messages in which a series of messages were usually sent 
to the message-line in a flurry - and the only way you could find out what had 
happened was to enlarge the message-line and scroll back.


--fish

\enddata{text,539138416}

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\begindata{text,538719240}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
\define{sans
menu:[Font~1,Sans]
attr:[FontFamily AndySans Int 0]}
\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from ext.misc.info-andrew: 26-Aug-92 Re: Hasn't the
message line.. Robert Andrew Ryan@RCHGA (1674+0)}


\quotation{...one of the wins of ATK and Emacs (gnu and gosling) over
Macintosh Toolbox and Motif is the fact that they \bold{have }a message line.
 In the Mac and Motif model, you have to pop up a dialog box for any transient
message,  obscuring part of a window most probably.  When a message is purely
informational this is a waste.

}
Hear, hear!

\sans{Anyway, this is a little off-the-wall, but how about dynamically
changing the \italic{font size?}

\smaller{When something in the message line gets too long, the text can get
shrunk so it still fits.

\smaller{\smaller{If there's a whole mess of text, it can get scrunched down
into a teeny-tiny font so it will all still fit.

}}}}
\center{--Rob \smaller{\smaller{"the one-man Peanut Gallery"}} Kemmetmueller

}\enddata{text,538719240}

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To: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>
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References: <seaklKq00WoiAtIV5V@andrew.cmu.edu>
	<1992Aug26.064903.21757@adobe.com>
	<keauijW00WoiAlJUlh@andrew.cmu.edu>
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\begindata{text,539133292}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
\define{italic
menu:[Font~1,Italic~11]
attr:[FontFace Italic Int Set]}
\define{smaller
menu:[Font~1,Smaller~21]
attr:[FontSize PreviousFontSize Point -2]}
\define{sans
menu:[Font~1,Sans]
attr:[FontFamily AndySans Int 0]}
\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from internet.other.info-andrew: 26-Aug-92 Re: 
message line bogosity Robert Kemmetmueller@rch (781+0)}


\sans{\quotation{Anyway, this is a little off-the-wall, but how about 
dynamically changing the \italic{font size?}

}\smaller{\quotation{When something in the message line gets too long, the 
text can get shrunk so it still fits.

}\smaller{\smaller{\quotation{If there's a whole mess of text, it can get 
scrunched down into a teeny-tiny font so it will all still fit.

}}}}}
I don't think that idea would fly too much - some people set up their fonts 
specifically so that they can read them, and shrinking the fonts for longer 
messages may greatly impair their ability to read the information presented.


I'd be happy with the way it used to be a long time ago - if the message was 
too long to fit in the existing space allocated for the message-line, it 
wrapped - and all you would see was the wrapped portion. 


BUT THEN you could enlarge the message line (horizontally and/or vertically) 
 and find out what the whole message was.  If you increased the size 
vertically - it became scrollable.  


AND it maintained a small (<10?) history of the last N messages - and each was 
timestamped (much the way they are in Console) so you could get some amount of 
context.  


The only thing I can see that would be an improvement - is if the (vertical) 
size of the message-line were able to change on the fly - dependant upon the 
length of the message being displayed - and then automatically decrease in 
size again afterwards (heuristic needed)


--fish\
\enddata{text,539133292}

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\begindata{text,538957704}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from ext.misc.info-andrew: 26-Aug-92 Re: message
line bogosity Adam Stoller@RCHGATE.rch (1472+0)}


\quotation{The only thing I can see that would be an improvement - is if the
(vertical) size of the message-line were able to change on the fly - dependant
upon the length of the message being displayed - and then automatically
decrease in size again afterwards (heuristic needed)

}
I give this my vote for long messages.  This really shouldn't be too
difficult--all you need to know is whether the message line is tall because of
a long message, or because the user stretched it.  When the next message is
displayed, it could shrink as long as it wasn't stretched.  In fact, I would
prefer a keybinding that would ``reset'' it back to one line so I can stretch
it at will without having to mess with it to put it back ``just right.''  In
fact, this really means that the message line could customized for height (#
of lines) so a user could have it 0 lines tall  and it would stretch up and
down as the message line displays and is cleared.  I'd personally think that
behavior would be annoying, but screen-space lovers would probably like it.


I also would like a history (let 'em customize it like in typescript), history
recall and completion (again, like in typescript).  I can dream, can't I?


-todd inglett

\enddata{text,538957704}

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Date: 26 Aug 92 21:53:45 GMT
From: adobe!usenet@decwrl.dec.com  (Zalman Stern)
Organization: Adobe Systems Incorporated
Subject: Re: Hasn't the message line bogosity gone on long enough?
Message-Id: <1992Aug26.215345.23827@adobe.com>
References: <keauijW00WoiAlJUlh@andrew.cmu.edu>
Sender: info-andrew-request@andrew.cmu.edu
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu

In article <keauijW00WoiAlJUlh@andrew.cmu.edu> rr2b+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU (Robert  
Andrew Ryan) writes:
> Excerpts from internet.other.info-andrew: 26-Aug-92 Re: Hasn't the
> message line.. Zalman Stern@decwrl.dec. (810)
> 
> > If it overflows, build a dialog box with a large message line and pop
> > that  up instead. See how people like that.
> 
> Unfortunately this can't really cover the case of a input request, since
> the message line could grow substantially during input.

I'm actually proposing to make this test on each Update. As soon as it gets  
too long, you "promote" it to a dialog box. This is probably 50% saracastic.

> Excerpts from internet.other.info-andrew: 26-Aug-92 Re: Hasn't the
> message line.. Zalman Stern@decwrl.dec. (810)
> 
> > You could dynamically resize the  
> > message line instead. Both of these should be relatively easy to do if I  
> recall frameview at all. (Which I probably don't).
> 
> Yes this could be done without too much hacking on frameview, but the
> runtime cost for the redraws could be prohibitive esp over slow
> networks.  Another possible solution to this might be to give text a
> notion of horizontal scrolling. (though not with a scrollbar please :-)

Designing a graphical user interface on the basis of "slow networks" is  
pretty stupid. But pointing that out to the UNIX community is wholely  
unproductive.

However in this case, the conceptual redraw can be quite efficient. Given a  
text window (or something with the same "bit gravity" as a text window)  
above the message line, all you have to do is make the bottom section of the  
lpair larger, and redraw the top scrollbar. (I.e. a line of text disappears  
off the bottom of the top textview.) Getting lpair and textview to  
accomplish this may be a hassle because they probably blast the rectangle to  
white and FullUpdate. (In fact the ATK Update/FullUpdate protocol may not  
allow this. Its been a while... If not, it should be fixed :-))

[Rob claims message lines are a win.]

Macintosh Programmers Workshop (MPW) has a notion of a console window with a  
special key sequence (either the Enter key or CMD-Return) that means send  
the current line (or current selection) as input. Programs write prompts out  
to the window and the user types something and hits CMD-Return. (The prompt  
will most likely show up in the input to the program in this scenario.) If  
you want the message line to behave as a text buffer with history, you end  
up doing something like this. (ATK could win by having the prompts marked  
with a special style so the text could be removed before handing back a  
reply.) If I were going to do this, I'd have a single message line window  
per application and throw the input focus to that window when a question is  
asked. (It might even be plausible to have a single message line window for  
all ATK applications running at one time.)

[Aside: I don't recall the timestamped message line log that Adam described.  
I'm pretty certain it wasn't in any implementation of framemessage while I  
was at the ITC. So its either relatively recent or perhaps from bx or BE I?]

Finally, forcing filename prompting into a message line is a lose. A good  
Macintosh file dialog is faster and easier to use. (Checkout Super Boomerang  
sometime.) On large screens, you can avoid losing context by having the file  
dialog show up in a standard window location that the user chooses. This  
space can then be kept more or less empty. 
--
Zalman Stern		   zalman@adobe.com		    (415) 962 3824
Adobe Systems, 1585 Charleston Rd., POB 7900, Mountain View, CA 94039-7900
  "Yeah. Ask 'em if they'll upgrade my shifters too." Bill Watterson
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Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 20:51:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: Gary Keim <gk5g+@andrew.cmu.edu>
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To: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>
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	<1992Aug26.215345.23827@adobe.com>

\begindata{text,538799112}
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\template{messages}


\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from netnews.comp.soft-sys.andrew: 26-Aug-92 Re: 
Hasn't the message line.. Zalman Stern@adobe.com (3690)}


\quotation{Designing a graphical user interface on the basis of "slow 
networks" is  

}\quotation{pretty stupid. But pointing that out to the UNIX community is 
wholely  

}\quotation{unproductive.

}
Oh, come on Zalman.  Are you saying that you don't run Andrew apps to display 
on your RT at home over MCN & annex terminal servers via SLIP at 19200 bps? 
 I'm worried about these issues.  The X Consortium is worried too.


--Gary

\enddata{text,538799112}

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Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 00:37:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: Bill Cattey <wdc@Athena.MIT.EDU>
To: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>,
        Adam Stoller <ghoti+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: message line bogosity
Cc: 
In-Reply-To: <Yeay5SO00guRNNclQN@andrew.cmu.edu>
References: <seaklKq00WoiAtIV5V@andrew.cmu.edu>
 <1992Aug26.064903.21757@adobe.com>
 <keauijW00WoiAlJUlh@andrew.cmu.edu>
 <QeaxLxs91F05KKgdlR@rchland.ibm.com>
 <Yeay5SO00guRNNclQN@andrew.cmu.edu>

I like the idea of dynamic resizing.

Currently the message line works very hard at shrinking itself smaller when you
enlarge it.  Example:  I visit a new file with a long path name.  I enlagre the
message line.  When the new file is read, since it's displayed in a new
"buffer" the message line goes back to the default size.  This too can
often be a lose.

Making everything be a dialogue box may or may not be a good thing.

Now that ATK has real pop-up dialogue boxes, maybe someone could code
one of those allegedly winning macintosh file dialogue boxes.  The ones
I've used on the Mac suck, but maybe a decent one exists somewhere.

-wdc


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From: qralston@gl.pitt.edu (James Ralston Crawford)
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Subject: Re: "slow networks"
To: info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 92 3:05:23 EDT
In-Reply-To: <Ueb2Q2q00WohFIHUgL@andrew.cmu.edu>; from "Gary Keim" at Aug 26, 92 8:51 pm
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]

> > Designing a graphical user interface on the basis of "slow
> > networks" is pretty stupid. But pointing that out to the UNIX
> > community is wholely unproductive.
> 
> Oh, come on Zalman.  Are you saying that you don't run Andrew apps
> to display on your RT at home over MCN & annex terminal servers via
> SLIP at 19200 bps?  I'm worried about these issues.  The X
> Consortium is worried too.

	Your point is valid, but my principal worry isn't SLIP at
19200bps, and won't be for quite some time.  Mine is, quite frankly,
seeing if there exists an AMS-ish mail reader that I can use at home,
from my 2400bps vt100-type dialin.  (Going to tell me to buy a
19200bps modem?  Make a donation.)

	I have come to conclusion that at 2400bps, EZmail isn't so
easy.  I've tried Niftymail, but come to the conclusion that although
better than EZmail, it isn't really that nifty, either.  I've heard of
CUI and VUI, but haven't had the time to try them out yet.  I've heard
of Batmail... as I understand it, an Emacs-extension of some sort...
but I have yet to lay hands on it.

	So, a question to those of you who have to answer email via a
plain dialin more than occasionally... what do you use?  What would be
ideal, IMHO, is something equivalent to elm, but understands the
concept of AMS folders.  So far, though, I've yet to be sufficiently
impressed by something AMS-ish to switch over from traditional email,
and elm.

	Regards,

James

-- 
James Ralston Crawford \ Advanced Graphics Lab                     The
qralston@gl.pitt.edu \ qralston@pittvms.bitnet                      Phantom
"Pitiful creature of darkness \ What kind of life have you known"  - of the
"God gave me courage to show you \ You are not alone"                 Opera
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\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from ext.misc.info-andrew: 25-Aug-92 Questions
about console "Z. Horvat"@RCHGATE.rchl (793*)}


\quotation{I'm running the Andrew Toolkit on an IBM RS 6000 AIX 3.1.6.

}\quotation{Console seems to have some problems:

}
\quotation{- Switching from the initial console display to another type of
console

}\quotation{yields in the cursor beeing changed to the "clock" symbol, never

}\quotation{returning back to the normal pointer. The stat graphs behave
normal.

}
This problem seems to have appeared in the last release or so.  To show
another aspect of it, grab and drag a console (interior) border with the right
button;  when released, the resize
icon\footnote{\
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l |
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g"03h |
g"03h |
g03c30fh |
g03c30fh |
gGf33ffcg |
gGf33ffcg |
gc03ff00cg |
gc03ff00cg |
gGf33ffcg |
gGf33ffcg |
g03c30fh |
g03c30fh |
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-wr

\enddata{text,538712696}

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Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 16:11:53 +0200 (CDT)
From: "Z. Horvat" <root@nike.rz.uni-konstanz.de>
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\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from mail: 27-Aug-92 Re: Questions about console 
Wayne D Richardson@rchla (641+1)}


\quotation{\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from ext.misc.info-andrew: 25-Aug-92 
Questions about console "Z. Horvat"@RCHGATE.rchl (793*)}

}
\quotation{\quotation{I'm running the Andrew Toolkit on an IBM RS 6000 AIX 
3.1.6.

}}\quotation{\quotation{Console seems to have some problems:

}}
\quotation{\quotation{- Switching from the initial console display to another 
type of console

}}\quotation{\quotation{yields in the cursor beeing changed to the "clock" 
symbol, never

}}\quotation{\quotation{returning back to the normal pointer. The stat graphs 
behave normal.

}}
\quotation{This problem seems to have appeared in the last release or so.  To 
show another aspect of it, grab and drag a console (interior) border with the 
right button;  when released, the resize 
icon\footnote{\
\begindata{fnote,538893576}
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2 0 68266 68266 0 0 42 32
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h03i |
h03i |
h03i |
h03i |
g"03h |
g"03h |
g03c30fh |
g03c30fh |
gGf33ffcg |
gGf33ffcg |
gc03ff00cg |
gc03ff00cg |
gGf33ffcg |
gGf33ffcg |
g03c30fh |
g03c30fh |
g"03h |
g"03h |
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\view{rasterview,538937736,7,49,0\
}\enddata{fnote,538893576}
\view{fnotev,538893576,8,0,0}} remains as the console pointer icon.

}
\quotation{-wr

}
It behaves just the way you said. Is there any bug fix or newer version 
available ??


Greetings,


------------------------------------

Z. Horvat

Rechenzentrum Universitaet Konstanz

7750 Konstanz

+49(0)7531-88-2405


root@nike.rz.uni-konstanz.de

rzhorv@nyx.uni-konstanz.de

------------------------------------

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Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 13:50:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: Bill Cattey <wdc@Athena.MIT.EDU>
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To: info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu, qralston@gl.pitt.edu
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Thank you, Mr. Ralston for setting the stage for the following criticsm.

I don't have access to EZmail or Niftymail.
I do have a 9600 V32.bis slip connection to a workstation at home.
I don't use messages over it.  It takes too damned long to draw anything.

On a local workstation, messages is the best user interface for reading
mail I have used.  It was intelligently designed to do time consuming
things while you work instead of while you wait.  (Any xmh developers
listening?  xmh goes out of its way to make you wait when you're doing
what you have to do.  Do it the way messages does!)

I used cui for a while.  It is inappropriate to criticise its user
interface.  It doesn't have one.  As soon as an enlightented developer
suggested I think of cui as a tester for the message server, all it's UI
quirks made perfect sense.  I immediately stopped using it and am a
happier man for it.

Now I use vui.  It is what is available to me.  It seems that the UI was
purposely designed to frustrate anyone who has used any other mail
reading interface.  It insists on being menu driven, and on a 2400 baud
line you will sit through a lot of tedious redraws.  The commands seem
designed to make it most difficult to do the most common operations.

I suggest that if you have EZmail that you use it and not waste your
time with vui.  They tell me EZmail is much nicer to use than vui.  I'll
try it out as soon as I can.

Having leveled harsh criticism, let me put some things in perspective:
I am the leading advocate of Andrew use at MIT.
I think that there are a few simple things that could be done to
radically improve the way mail reading works.
I think the ATK people have done a fine job but they need to redo
certain parts of mail reading if they want people to really appreciate
the value of ATK.

Simple things:

Get EZmail onto the Andrew disk in place of vui.
Advertise cui as a testing program not a user program.
RIP OUT the message server, throw it away, and replace 1 meg of
impossible code with 100K of simple code that uses pop and/or nntp and
a unix filesystem.
Build simple easy tools to enable the messages folder format
to interoperate with mh format and emacs RMAIL format.

So far I've seen 4 scripts come across this mailing list, none of which
really solves the problem of INTEROPERABILITY.  Interoperability means
that I can use mh, emacs RMAIL and messages any time I want and be able
to, by issuing a single command, incorporate archives in any one of the
three formats into any of the others.  There is some support for this,
but it doesn't really work and it's not the sort of thing I would give a
non-wizard.

Please forgive the harshness, but it felt real good to say it "loud and
dirty so you don't forget it", for a change.

Thanks for listening.

-wdc
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Date: Thu, 27 Aug 92 11:09:02 -0700
From: krishna@shamu.csd.sgi.com (Krishna `Shamu' Sethuraman)
Message-Id: <9208271809.AA29570@shamu.csd.sgi.com>
To: info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: "slow networks"
Reply-To: krishna@sgi.com


To solve this very problem, since I don't have anything but an 80x24 terminal
at home, I use CUI.  But, CUI is definitely *flexible* enough that I wrote a
cui.el for use with it, allowing me to read my mail at home through emacs.  Xmh
definitely is a lose, in my experience - I find myself abandoning goo-ui user
interfaces for an emacs-based client, even when I have to write the emacs
client myself.  Messages is the one GUI client that I retain, because of its
good design (at least in my estimation) and speed.

Providing a text client that's powerful enough to allow an emacs front end, is
again in my estimation, a sign of a user interface designed well enough to
accommodate future expansion and a high degree of personal customization.

Krishna Sethuraman
krishna@sgi.edu
Silicon Graphics Incorporated - the Leader in Visual Supercomputing
(If that's so, how come they use Motif?)

P.S.  Hi Bill!!!





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	<8ebFLI8Gf047QPRGx1@athena.mit.edu>


> Simple things:

> Get EZmail onto the Andrew disk in place of vui.
> Advertise cui as a testing program not a user program.
> RIP OUT the message server, throw it away, and replace 1 meg of
> impossible code with 100K of simple code that uses pop and/or nntp and
> a unix filesystem.

Certainly a principal design criteria, and perhaps the motivating
impetuous behind ATK's development was its ability to work in a
distributed fashion across different architectures, securely, within
AFS.  That's a tall order for off-the-shelf unix utilities to comply
with, and that's a leading reason why ATK's interoperability with common
unix communications systems is somewhat difficult.  

While many sites which use the ATK are not AFS participants, I think it
would be a great disservice to ATK's incredibly rich design effort to
bring its code down to the level of common client-server models, as
would likely be the case if ATK's message server were replaced with
something compatible with POP and nntp.

A good vui replacement is "a consummation to be wished", but I don't
think scrapping AFS support, if favor of a simple unix-like design, is
the answer.


-Bob
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From: Bill Cattey <wdc@Athena.MIT.EDU>
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To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu, Bob Dew <rdew@alw.nih.gov>
Subject: Re: "slow networks"
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	<8ebFLI8Gf047QPRGx1@athena.mit.edu>
	<QebI70G0ts4j8lz1Yy@alw.nih.gov>

It turns out that there is a great deal of hair in the message server,
and a great deal of AFS version 3 specific code there.  The abstraction
barriers are regularly crossed in complicated but necessary ways to deal
not so much with security as reliability.  

The AMDS mail delivery method is fundamentally flawed.  It is bad design
to require the delivery agent to have to deal with the possibility that
there are as many delivery agents as there are users all attempting to
write into a unix file system home directory to copy mail in and update
status simultaneously.

Client/Server is a good model for a mail delivery agent.  It puts the
smarts for dealing with race conditions into small well-understood
blocks of code. It does not require a high speed network connection at
all times for mail delivery.

The AMDS method was an interesting experiment, and a lot of people
worked their butts off making it work and making it reliable.  I expect
they know more about race conditions than any other mail system delivery
gurus.  But the system would benefit greatly from a paradigm shift to
the common client-server models.

The toolkit architecture is another experiment.  But this experiment
turns out to be well suited to the problem domain and will continue to
influence GUI and toolkit designs for several years.  I believe that the
ATK richness should be kept, but that the AMDS richness should be
learned from and then radically simplified.

-wdc
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	<IebJxxoGf0478PRKEF@athena.mit.edu>


AFS may not be for everybody.  We use it for reasons of security,
scalability, and ease of administration.  Likewise, we find AMDS secure,
scalable, and easy to administer and use under AFS. Unfortunately,
messages, cui and vui are the only user agents capable of handling AFS
home-area mail delivery. To remove the message server code from ATK
would mean, for us, the end of distributed mail service under AFS, and a
return to a client-server model that we think is inherently prone to
central points of failure, that is susceptible to unauthorized access
and to catastrophic data loss, and that doesn't scale well.  

But regardless of what mail transfer agent a site elects to use (clearly
there are advantages and disadvantages to both), what merits would be
gained in the messages and vui programs by dropping ATK's message server
support?  As things are, if ATK is compiled without the options for AFS
and AMDS, are the resulting programs much larger and more complicated
than if the message server code didn't exist at all?

-Bob
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Date: 28 Aug 92 07:34:04 GMT
From: yandros@athena.mit.edu  (Chad Phillip Brown)
Organization: /mit/yandros/.organizations
Subject: Re: Hasn't the message line bogosity gone on long enough?
Message-Id: <YANDROS.92Aug28033354@deathtongue.MIT.EDU>
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  Zalman Stern: 

> Finally, forcing filename prompting into a message line is a lose. A
> good Macintosh file dialog is faster and easier to use.

Speaking as one of Bill Cattey's users and, if I get this latest
project finished RSN :-), one of his workers, I implore you: PLEASE,
PLEASE don't do this.  It's painfull enough now waiting a few seconds
for the silly dialog to map itself, and it seems, although someone
thoughtfully provided DialogPriority to get around this, most code
seem to be setting the priority to be very very near 100 or 1 (to the
point that a DialogPriority of 99 produces no noticable difference
from one of 50, for 2 full days of work each.)  It's almost to the
point where I'm considering writing code to deal with it...  My poor
VS3100 will thank you too, because right now I tend to tap the side of
it's monitor seven times rather forcibly whenever I'm waiting for
ANOTHER dialog to tell me something I already knew....

-C

--
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Subject: Re: Hasn't the message line bogosity gone on long enough?
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\begindata{text,18832212}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from internet.other.info-andrew: 26-Aug-92 Re: 
Hasn't the message line.. Zalman Stern@decwrl.dec. (3690)}


\quotation{[Aside: I don't recall the timestamped message line log that Adam 
described.  

}\quotation{I'm pretty certain it wasn't in any implementation of framemessage 
while I  

}\quotation{was at the ITC. So its either relatively recent or perhaps from bx 
or BE I?]

}

I don't think that what Adam remembers was a timestamped message line log. 
 The messages that Messages would put into its log contained timestamps, but 
the timestamps weren't an inherent property of the message line micro-window. 
 (No, I don't know the totally-correct term here.)


It may indeed have been in the BX version of Messages.


		Regards,

		Craig

\enddata{text,18832212}

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Well, shucks.  When Bill Cattey proposed jettisoning the message server, I 
assumed he was talking about jettisoning the funky message-server/MUA (mail 
user agent, e.g. cuis, vuis, messagess) split in favor of some newer protocol. 
 Not a bad idea to explore, what with interesting mailbox-access protocols 
like IMAP and POP to check out.  Certainly the MS/MUA split is cumbersome for 
linked-together MUA applications (messagesn, cuin, vuin--the normal case); 
what seemed appropriate for PC&Mac support in 1985 doesn't make that much 
sense today.  No surprise here.


I didn't realize that what Bill seemed to be targeting was the whole AMDS 
picture.  (Yes, lots of folks worked on making that reliable, including guys 
like Mike Kazar making AFS work.)  I just don't see how Bill's AMDS 
retrospective critique follows.  Essentially, AMDS follows a client-server 
model, piggybacking on top of the AFS client-server model.  AFS effectively 
provides a real good name service, allowing clients anywhere to find the 
correct server for the desired service.


Given that Bill has never really lived with AMDS himself, I'm wondering how he 
comes to his conclusions.  Perhaps the tenseness in the message server (the 
UI-support component) is the stuff that Bill finds objectionable.  Indeed, it 
was largely a matter of taste, whether to put all that address validation 
support into the message server.  I happen to like the support it offers.  In 
trying to package AMDS+messageserver up for use at non-andrew.cmu.edu sites, 
the validation support becomes something of a nightmare for installers, but we 
tried to deal with this by making it reasonable for installers to turn all 
that stuff off.  And it really can be helpful when it's in a working 
installation.  The problem as I see it is that all the messageserver code to 
support address validation is nightmarishly complicated.  Is that what Bill's 
complaint is really about?


I guess I don't follow Bill's paragraph:

\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from internet.other.info-andrew: 27-Aug-92 Re: 
"slow networks" Bill Cattey@Athena.MIT.E (1456*)}


\quotation{The AMDS mail delivery method is fundamentally flawed.  It is bad 
design

}\quotation{to require the delivery agent to have to deal with the possibility 
that

}\quotation{there are as many delivery agents as there are users all 
attempting to

}\quotation{write into a unix file system home directory to copy mail in and 
update

}\quotation{status simultaneously.

}
Wish I did follow this statement, so I could form some opinion about it. 
 Clearly, in any mail delivery scene, somebody serializes mail deliveries 
somewhere.  What's the difference how or when that happens?


I wouldn't claim that AMDS is flawless, or that there aren't parts that should 
be re-worked or withdrawn.  (Or that the messageserver name-validation stuff 
is simple.)  I just don't understand this criticism--whether it's based on 
some new religion whose evangels haven't reached this shore, or what.


		Craig

\enddata{text,18832212}

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Criag is, I believe correct - it may very well have been in BX - and yes it is 
quite likely, given the format of warning/error-messages in the AMS code that 
the AMS code was responsible for the time-stamps - not the message-line 
itself.


--fish




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From: Bill Cattey <wdc@Athena.MIT.EDU>
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Craig, you're being more diplomatic than I deserve.
I confess, I am ignorant about most of the AMDS stuff.
I have only read some of the code, and perhaps drawn inappropriate
conclusions as to the design of the whole delivery system.

It is true I've not lived with it.

My bias (and tone) come from my (frustrated) attempt to figure out how
to do these things:

Make messages start up faster.
Simplify my configuration.
Enable netnews reading with messages.

I'd love to be able to read netnews with messages, but the prospect of
plugging nntp into the message server libraries proved too daunting.
I did attempt to read the code at the libms and the libcui layers, but I
just couldn't get it.  Everywhere I looked were all these special cases
that violated the abstraction barriers and got in the way.  Take the
problem of trying to decide if one should use an nntp connection or a
filesystem connection.  The library is so-structured that for every
operation you would perform, you have to include all the mail path
parsing code so you are able to pick either nntp or unix filesystem.

At the present time, it appears that I get to wait for one meg of
amsn.do code to be loaded in to my messages with internal message
server, so that I can ignore all the functionality, and read mail from
Mailboxdir, save it in .MESSAGES, and post it with sendmail.

There is truly a mismatch of functionality to my needs.  I allow myself
to use the user interface because I like it, but I pay in start up time
and in incompatibility with the other mail archiving formats.  Every
time I try to answer for myself, what the amsn.do code is doing, I get
hopelessly lost.

Forgive my inaccurate critique of the design.  I have misunderstood.  I
couldn't really find a client/server model in what I read.

-wdc

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Subject: messages and X windows
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<nl>
<nl>
Hi,<nl>
<nl>
Over the past month or so I've been trialing the ATK binary distribution on ou=
r Sun server. <nl>
<nl>
From my SPARCstation it ran/runs very well, and I'm already to announce its av=
ailability to the campus here.<nl>
<nl>
Unfortunately, I can't get it to run on NCD X-terminals - running ATK applicat=
ions (like <bold>runapp lauchapp</bold>) causes the following error:<nl>
<nl>
<excerpt>Could not open display; this program will not run without a window sy=
stem<nl>
<nl>
</excerpt>Needless to say, windows was running at the time ;-)<nl>
<nl>
Any ideas where I should start looking for the problem? The server runs SunOS =
4.1.2 and X11R5<nl>
<nl>
Cheers<nl>
<nl>
Jason Haar, Network Consultant<nl>
<nl>
PS: Anyone know how to load extra fonts on a VAXstation? I can't get ATK to ru=
n on them either - but this time a trace reveals its having font problems...
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\begindata{text,1827920}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from andrew.mailing-list: 28-Aug-92 Re: "slow 
networks" Bill Cattey@athena.mit.e (1794*)}



\quotation{I'd love to be able to read netnews with messages, but the prospect 
of

}\quotation{plugging nntp into the message server libraries proved too 
daunting.

}\quotation{I did attempt to read the code at the libms and the libcui layers, 
but I

}\quotation{just couldn't get it. }


\quotation{-wdc


}Oops, adding netnews support through nntp was going to be my next project. 
Every time someone starts using AMS, the first question is: can I read netnews 
with it?


The limited support for reading netnews consists of pulling articles from the 
net and storing them in the AMS format. We already store megabytes of netnews 
articles on our nntp server, all one has to do is ask for them.


\quotation{ Everywhere I looked were all these special cases

}\quotation{that violated the abstraction barriers and got in the way.  Take 
the

}\quotation{problem of trying to decide if one should use an nntp connection 
or a

}\quotation{filesystem connection.  The library is so-structured that for 
every

}\quotation{operation you would perform, you have to include all the mail path

}\quotation{parsing code so you are able to pick either nntp or unix 
filesystem.

} 

I haven't looked at the message server libraries close enough, but from what 
I've seen so far in the ATK code I must agree that for an Object Oriented 
Toolkit the code isn't very 'object oriented'. The patch from Nathaniel 
Borenstein to allow private bulletin boards affected 16 files in the message 
library. Basically it only changed the fileprotection mask of .MS_MsgDir.

 

Personally I like the Gopher concept. In a directory is a file that describes 
the type of information stored. That can be plain text or a link to another 
Gopher site or a netnews tree (through nntp) or a ftp-service or  .....  The 
abstraction is same, you must be able to ask for the contents (captions), 
follow a link and get a particular item.


Inspite of the discouraging news from Craig I'am still going to try to add 
netnews support. Any hints, previous work?


Regards,


Harco de Hilster.

\enddata{text,1827920}

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From: Jiri Mracek <ZRSN%DS0RUS1I.BITNET@BITNET.CC.CMU.EDU>
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Hello,
I need  your help in the following matter:
    Our universal computer will be replaced by a RS 6000 cluster.
    During a login process a user will be (automatically) assingned
    to a mashine which is not heavily loaded. Hence, such a user
    doesn't know what machine (s)he will be actually using. That is
    why (amog other things) we have to solve a mail problem. Namely,
    users should be able to read their mail on whatever machine of
    the cluster  they are.
    Being in a AFS cell we decided to use AMS which allows
    distributed mail processing. So,  I copied the binary
    distribution of ATK 5.1 (/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/itc/ ...
    /X.V11R5/ftp/cdrom/rs_aix31/andrew.tar.Z) and installed it.
    I read the appropriate help file, /usr/andrew/help/ams.help,
    which claims:
          -- explicitly run the message server as a separate
    process, by typint the name of the program plus an "s":

        messagess.

    Unfortunately, there is no messagess program in the binary
    distribution of ATK 5.1, is there? .
    Then, I looked for other ms-help files. In the file NonUnix.ins,
    Building and Installing Snapified Clients and Servers, I found
    something usefull. It looks like I have to get the source
    distribution of ATK  to build, to install and to run
    Snapified Clients and Servers, haven't I?.

I appreciate any help and/or hint.


Jiri Mracek                     Phone : +49 711 685 4806
                                Fax   : +49 711 682 357
Systems Section                 Email : Mracek@rus.uni-stuttgart.de
Computer Center                 Mail  : Allmandring 30
University of Stuttgart                 7000 Stuttgart-80
                                        Germany
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\begindata{text,18248124}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
If you're running AFS, you may well want the source Andrew (ATK+AMS) 
distribution anyway, to recompile and re-link with AFS libraries.  I would 
guess that the CD-Rom version of the ATK binaries is built without building a 
message-server or its support; that would correspond to how folks in most 
environments will be wanting to use it.


You may even want to run AMDS, since you're interested in AMS + AFS.  AMDS 
functions as a local-mail queueing and delivery system that treats the whole 
AFS cell as a single local site.


		Craig



\enddata{text,18248124}

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Message-Id: <4ecaUNy01V8XM9D29D@theophilus.rutgers.edu>
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 14:42:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: Rocky - Rakesh Patel <rapatel@theophilus.rutgers.edu>
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Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/richtext; charset=US-ASCII
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To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: message, MIME and reformat/text patch.

<nl>
<nl>
One of the problems with the MIME support is that when one sends out<nl>
a message with the "Remove formatting & send" option, is that a MIME<nl>
header is included with content type set to US-ASCII for those uf us<nl>
in the US - even when not using encoding. This while perfectly legal,<nl>
can cause mailers that invoke metamail to invoke it on pure ascii text.<nl>
This annoys many users I send mail to. :-(   Given that mail gets sent<nl>
everywhere in the world in pure text format, I don't believe that the followin=
g<nl>
patch would hurt people given that (at least from my perspective) the remove<n=
l>
formatting and send option was designed to allow non-Andrew users<nl>
to read the message easily. I would translate that to be for non-MIME users<nl=
>
in the current situation. Well, here is the patch to atkams/messages/lib/sen=
daux.c for those that may be interested in it:<nl>
<nl>
*** sendaux.c.ORIG	Tue Mar 17 19:44:13 1992<nl>
--- sendaux.c	Mon Aug 31 14:14:53 1992<nl>
***************<nl>
*** 1117,1124 ****<nl>
  	      if (!charset) charset =3D "iso-8859-1"; /* Just a guess! */<nl>
  	      NeedsEncoding =3D 1;<nl>
  	  } else charset =3D "US-ASCII";<nl>
! 	  fprintf(fp, "MIME-Version: 1.0\nContent-type: text/plain; charset=3D%s\n"=
, charset);<nl>
! 	  if (NeedsEncoding) fprintf(fp, "Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printab=
le\n");<nl>
  	}<nl>
  	/*    environ_Put("TextWriteVersion12", "X"); /* phased out 12/27/88, now d=
efault */<nl>
  	 d =3D sendmessage->HeadText;<nl>
--- 1117,1126 ----<nl>
  	      if (!charset) charset =3D "iso-8859-1"; /* Just a guess! */<nl>
  	      NeedsEncoding =3D 1;<nl>
  	  } else charset =3D "US-ASCII";<nl>
! 	  if ( ! (strcmp(charset,"US-ASCII") =3D=3D 0 && (! NeedsEncoding)) ) {<nl>=

! 	    fprintf(fp, "MIME-Version: 1.0\nContent-type: text/plain; charset=3D%s=
\n", charset);<nl>
! 	    if (NeedsEncoding) fprintf(fp, "Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-print=
able\n");<nl>
! 	  }<nl>
  	}<nl>
  	/*    environ_Put("TextWriteVersion12", "X"); /* phased out 12/27/88, now d=
efault */<nl>
  	 d =3D sendmessage->HeadText;<nl>
<nl>
<center><flushleft><center><nl>
</center></flushleft>Rakesh Patel</center><flushleft><center><nl>
<italic>Systems Programmer<nl>
</italic></center></flushleft><center><bold>Network Services/NJIN Project<nl>
Telcommunications Division<nl>
</bold></center><flushleft><center><bold><bigger>Rutgers University Computing =
Services<nl>
</bigger></bold></center></flushleft><center>rapatel@hardees.rutgers.edu<nl>
rapatel@pilot.njin.net<nl>
<nl>
</center><underline><nl>
</underline>
\enddata{text822, 279126}
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Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 15:41:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: Bill Cattey <wdc@Athena.MIT.EDU>
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To: Info-Andrew <info-andrew+@andrew.cmu.edu>, Craig_Everhart@transarc.com,
        Harco de Hilster <harcoh@cs.kun.nl>
Subject: Re: "slow networks"
In-Reply-To: <wecRYcC3fW41NhOVEI@cs.kun.nl>
References: <9208270705.AA03528@apollo.gl.pitt.edu>
	<8ebFLI8Gf047QPRGx1@athena.mit.edu>
	<QebI70G0ts4j8lz1Yy@alw.nih.gov>
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\begindata{text,19089020}
\textdsversion{12}
\template{messages}
\excerptedcaption{Excerpts from mail: 31-Aug-92 Re: "slow networks" Harco de 
Hilster@cs.kun. (2013)}


\quotation{I haven't looked at the message server libraries close enough, but 
from }\quotation{what I've seen so far in the ATK code I must agree that for 
an Object }\quotation{Oriented Toolkit the code isn't very 'object oriented'.}


I think Craig could better answer this issue than I.  My understanding is that 
the delivery system needed to function even on platforms for which no port of 
the Andrew toolkit existed.  Certain internal architectures could have been 
made cleaner if the object system was used, but such was not an option.


My observation is that there are people who read and are comfortable with ATK 
object system code, and people who read and are comfortable with the message 
system code, but I don't believe I've ever met anyone who was in both groups.


-wdc

\enddata{text,19089020}

\enddata{text822, 283319}
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Date: 31 Aug 92 18:39:26 GMT
From: micro-heart-of-gold.mit.edu!bu.edu!dartvax!coos.dartmouth.edu!paw@bloom-beacon.mit.edu  (Pat Wilson)
Organization: Project NORTHSTAR
Subject: ATK4 or 5 for AIX 3.2?
Message-Id: <1992Aug31.183926.27190@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>
Sender: info-andrew-request@andrew.cmu.edu
To: info-andrew@andrew.cmu.edu


I'm attempting to build ATK4 for rs/6000s running AIX 3.2 (and AFS).
Does anyone have configuration files they'd share?  Even better, of
course (I guess), would be ATK5 configuration files for AIX 3.2 - all 
that's shipped on the CDROM are AIX 3.1. 

I've never had to make ATK before, so my apologies if the solution
is extremely obvious...

Thanks.
-- 
Pat Wilson
Systems Manager, Project NORTHSTAR
paw@northstar.dartmouth.edu
\enddata{text822, 286058}