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From: brg@netcom.com (Bruce R. Gilson)
Subject: A tale of two letters (Was: How to get a conial used)
Message-ID: <brgE76o3p.LyE@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom
References: <276@vision25.demon.co.uk> <3326F4C4.43CD@lonnds.ml.com> <brgE71rDp.GJo@netcom.com> <332c1aa0.2312460@nntp.best.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 10:35:49 GMT
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Sender: brg@netcom18.netcom.com

In article <332c1aa0.2312460@nntp.best.com>,
Don HARLOW <don@donh.vip.best.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 14 Mar 1997 18:58:37 GMT, brg@netcom.com (Bruce R. Gilson)
>wrote:

>>In article <3326F4C4.43CD@lonnds.ml.com>,
>>Julian Pardoe  <pardoej@lonnds.ml.com> wrote:
>>>Phil Hunt wrote:

>>>> I contend that Esperanto has failed

>>>Well, let us know when Eurolang succeeds where Esperanto
>>>has failed!  I look forward to your first Universal Congress
>>>too.

>>Well, when Eurolang has been around 110 years, as E-o has been, if it has as
>>few speakers as E-o has now, I would call that failure.

>Why, Bruce? Novial has been around more than half as long as Esperanto
>(7/11 as long, to be closer to precise), has multiple orders of
>magnitude fewer speakers (if any), and yet you refuse to call it a
>failure...

In an earlier response to Don H's post, I remarked that I thought Novial
deserved a second chance. And I said that anyone with half an open mind
could see the value of Novial, as opposed to Esperanto.

It occurred to me that I had a powerful argument in the letters I received
from a Brazilian Esperantist, one in late December, one earlier this month.
He started off as a fervent Esperantist, as witness the first letter:



[JMM]brg@netcom.com wrote:

[JMM]> > > Jos Mrio Marques <Josmar@digi.com.br> wrote:
[JMM]> > > >brg@netcom.com wrote:

[JMM]> > > >> My reasons for not learning Esperanto are simply this. I have better uses for
[JMM]> > > >> my time. If Esperanto were as easy a language as Interlingua, I would not
[JMM]> > > >> need to devote any time to learning it. I read Stan Mulaik's posts in
[JMM]> > > >> Interlingua without having had any time spent in formal study of it.
[JMM]> > > >> Esperanto is not so transparent. That is one reason I reject it. I don't
[JMM]> > > >> want to learn Esperanto so I can read a few books. I'd rather learn a language
[JMM]> > > >> with many more books written in it, as the effort is better paid off for.


[JMM]> > > >English is much easier to me to read it, than Interlingua. According to
[JMM]> > > >youer reasoning it is preferable to Interlingua. Most of people
[JMM]> > > >throughout the world that have been studying English can read simple
[JMM]> > > >texts in it. But we need to read complex texts too. Find a language, in
[JMM]> > > >which you can read complex texts in it and recongnize at once. That
[JMM]> > > >language does n't exist, and you'll never create it. But a easylearning
[JMM]> > > >one exists. Open your eyes and ears, BRG.


[JMM]> > > Jose: If you think Esperanto is "an easylearning language," you are certainly
[JMM]> > > deluded. I have an easier time learning language than most. So I look at,
[JMM]> > > not what gave me trouble in my language courses, but what gave others in my
[JMM]> > > classes trouble. What was the most difficult thing? ADJECTIVE-NOUN AGREEMENT!
[JMM]> > > And Esperanto retains this foolish feature.


[JMM]> My Dear Bruce,

[JMM]> Esperanto does not retain that feature. It has it. As other natlangs
[JMM]> have it. As English has its particular features. Unhelpably Esperanto is
[JMM]> a living language. Noone can come and change it as nobody can come and
[JMM]> change Portuguese, English, French, Spanish and so on. To this we can
[JMM]> only apply that american slogan: love it or leave it.

[JMM]> Sure I know that's why you are struggling for Novial. That's right. I do
[JMM]> not comdamn, you have even my simpathy and if necessary my help. I am
[JMM]> not so closed mind as may be my opinions in this forum showed. I have a
[JMM]> pitfall: Emglish is not my native tongue. I have severe difficulties in
[JMM]> ruling it. My vocabulary is short. My grammar knowledges of the language
[JMM]> are at least "poor". So may be my words sounds not as I would like that
[JMM]> they sound.

[JMM]> I'm a strong defender of a free adoption of an internatioal language. I
[JMM]> struggle for Esperanto, but I do not put away other alternatives. I
[JMM]> fight for that I think is the best one for the role intended. But I
[JMM]> think that even if such a language would be Novial, or Interlingua, or
[JMM]> Glosa, or any other including a natlang, if the adoption would be real
[JMM]> and the world would definitively have an all purpose international
[JMM]> language, I would become happy and I would learn and use it. Of course I
[JMM]> would still use Esperanto and Portuguese because they are part of
[JMM]> myself.

[JMM]> Do you see? My bones are not so green as Marc P. Line said.

[JMM]> I think that the Auxlangers of the world should create a neutral
[JMM]> international movement for an international language, not defending any
[JMM]> type of language, but presenting objectively all the alternative
[JMM]> existent candidates, so defending the idea of adoption of an all purpose
[JMM]> international language, not just an european international language. The
[JMM]> marketing of each candidate should be made by the specific group that is
[JMM]> actually promoting it. There are many good esperantists that think in
[JMM]> the same way. We should colaborate one to the other not necessarily
[JMM]> fight one against the other.

[JMM]> Finally we are so few, why divide ourselves? If united we are almost
[JMM]> none, what we are alone?

[JMM]> That's why I subscribed Auxlang. I'm interested on your efforts,
[JMM]> including to understand them and give any help on my knowledge of
[JMM]> Esperanto and Portuguese, if that help would be necessary and requested
[JMM]> by any one of you, including from Marc P. Line that called me silly and
[JMM]> naive, because, not wanting offend you, but in a kidding manner, I said
[JMM]> you were blind. I did not think he was your attorney at law and I did
[JMM]> not think you became offended cause that expression.

[JMM]> In that manner I see the neutrality of a planned international language.
[JMM]> Everyone must learn it. If English or other natlang would become the
[JMM]> allpurpose international language intended by me, and i expect by most
[JMM]> of auxlangers, all the other languages speaking people would be expected
[JMM]> to learn it. But not those speaking English as a native tongue. These
[JMM]> last would be authoritative in the language ever upon the other
[JMM]> languages users. And I think in thar lays the cause of much
[JMM]> misunderstandings in this list: several auxlangers are not speaking
[JMM]> their native tongue hear. Most of us, so do not percept at once any
[JMM]> offending tone in our speaches. And you, those who speaks English as a
[JMM]> native tongue percept those offending tones even where they are not. It
[JMM]> would better if all of us could use here each its native tongue, so we
[JMM]> would attaing neutrality in this list. Or better to begin to use
[JMM]> everyone the auxlang each defends. In this last case we would attain mey
[JMM]> be most of neutrality.

[JMM]> Cause of that, i do not think as several of you do, that electing the
[JMM]> most international roots you'll provide your auxlang of neutrality,
[JMM]> because certainly you'll cannot conglobate all the chief language groups
[JMM]> in it, because there are almost no similarities among them, except the
[JMM]> indo-germanic languages.

[JMM]> Certainly my English seems silly and naive to you, and may be my
[JMM]> opinions must be silly and naive, but i'm not that, i would prefer the
[JMM]> adjetive idealistic for my attitudes toward Esperanto and Auxlang in
[JMM]> general.

In his most recent letter, it is clear that he has not abandoned Esperanto,
but, just on the basis of seeing one post, in 1928 Novial (and I think our
updated version of Novial will be _better_!), he has already seen why some
of us have become devoted to Novial:

[JMM]AUXLANG@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU wrote:

[JMM]> The following text is in 1928 Novial, slightly different from the version
[JMM]> which we plan to publish. However, as I had taken the time to type it out
[JMM]> for the Novial list, mainly for its content, I thought it might be useful
[JMM]> for those of you who have never seen connected Novial text to see this.
[JMM]> So I'm mailing it to this list too.

[JMM]> For those who are interested, the major differences in N97 will be:

[JMM]> All verb forms ending in a vowel will have a postposed -r,
[JMM]> The ending -eso is replaced by -itate,
[JMM]> All other nouns ending in -o that do not represent male beings will have the
[JMM]> -o changed to -e.

[JMM]> (There are other changes, but I do not think they affect any words in this
[JMM]> text.)

[JMM]> (This post is directly copied from AIL. The original was in Ido,
[JMM]> thus the form "skribar" which is not Novial.)

[JMM]> Stranji Sonjo. Da O. J.+
[JMM]> Stranji Sonjo. Da O. J.

[JMM]Dear Bruce (May I?),

[JMM]For the first time i have seen a text in Novial. Of course, I could not
[JMM]understand the whole text, but I recognized most of its words and the
[JMM]idea put in it. It seemed to me the most coherent planned language among
[JMM]the other proposed after Esperanto (whose samples I have seen), and I
[JMM]began understand why you are so closed to it. Of course I have heard
[JMM]comments about it and about its creator, that is the first language
[JMM]planned by a linguist, and cause of that "the most perfect one". Of
[JMM]course I cannot judge that, because I know nothing about its
[JMM]pronountiation, grammar and criteria used by the creator in order to
[JMM]select the vocabulary. With pleasure I would be acquainted with those
[JMM]informations. Where to find them? Would you help an esperantist
[JMM]interested in it? [:-)] Is there those informations in portuguese or
[JMM]spanish, or perhaps in Esperanto, in the Web? Where to find them?
[JMM]What are the meanings of: {list deleted}?
[JMM]Thanks a lot for the coming answer.

[JMM]Jose Mario Marques
[JMM]Josmar@digi.com.br

                                Bruce R. Gilson
                                email: brg@netcom.com
                                IRC: EZ-as-pi
                                WWW: http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/3141
                                (for language stuff: add /langpage.html)
