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From: deb5@midway.uchicago.edu (Daniel von Brighoff)
Subject: Re: Transliteration
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References: <7fybe9ur4n.fsf@phoenix.cs.hku.hk> <32D3038C.3E1F@scruznet.com> <E3yLCv.G4J@midway.uchicago.edu> <32DC54CD.61F@scruznet.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 06:37:09 GMT
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In article <32DC54CD.61F@scruznet.com>,
Mike Wright  <darwin@scruznet.com> wrote:
>Daniel von Brighoff wrote:
>> 
>> Mandarin <j> developed from earlier <g> or <z> before
>> <i>.  (Similarly, <q> from <k> and <c> before <i>).  I'm not sure when
>> this change took place in Beijing Mandarin, but I've heard that as late as
>> this century, the <z>/<c> -> <j>/<q> shift was not complete in Tianjin
>> Mandarin, spoken a mere 30 miles or so away.
>> 
>> Early romanisations transcribed these sounds etymologically (e.g. <Peking>
>> for "Beijing" and <Tientsin> for "Tianjin"), but this doesn't mean that
>> they were preserved in all dialects.
>
>Matthew's dictionary, published in 1931, shows the "jin" of Tianjin in
>Wade-Giles as "chin or tsin", but the Zhuyinfuhao spelling that is used
>would be "zin" in pinyin, which would not be possible now in standard
>Mandarin. Similar transitional forms appear throughout the dictionary.
>The introduction indicates that earlier versions of the dictionary used
>the "Central" dialects, like that of Nanjing, as a standard, while the
>1931 version was standardized on the Beijing pronunciation. Nothing I
>have access to shows any such variations in these particular initials
>among any of the Mandarin subdialects.

You don't have access to the two-volume Wade-Giles?  It has copious
dialect data in the margins.  Also, I'm pretty sure that the early
editions of Mathews have <k> in place of <ch> before <i>.  I'm certain
that the so-called "Post Office System" did (and as a result, some people 
*still* persist in writing <Sinkiang>, <Kiangsu>, and <Hupeh>), but I
don't know what would be a good resource for that.

>Anyone know more about this? It seems interesting that what seems to be
>a substantial change in pronunciation would take place so quickly. What
>might the causes have been?

First of all, the change wasn't all that "sudden" as the existence of
transitional forms shows.  I'm not sure when the <c>/<z> -> <q>/<j> change
started, but--as I pointed out--it may not be complete even today.  As
Patrick Chew reminded me, the palatalisation of the velars begins much
earlier and seems to have been complete by the time the palatalisation of 
dentals began (the evidence for that includes a dental/palatal distinction
before <i> in modern Beijing opera pronunciation). 

Second, it's so hard to define "causes" for linguistic change that most
linguists don't even bother to look for them any more.  Languages just
change.  What's the cause of the Great Vowel Shift in English?  The 2.
Lautverschiebung in German?  The loss of consonant clusters in Korean?
All we can examine are the means by which the changes get spread.  In the
Mandarin case, this isn't too difficult:  Why wouldn't a change in the
prestige dialect of the capitol spread elsewhere?

>> Again, this could be evidence of a transliteration tradition that has
>> outlived its usefullness.  Maybe "guitar" was romanised when Mandarin
>> still had the opposition, maybe later transliterators were just following
>> the example set by words transliterated centuries earlier.
>
>Yes, it does seem that certain characters came to be the standard ones
>used for transliteration.

...despite the existance of other characters that would have better
reflected the current pronunciation.  Just like with Ancient Greek in
Modern English.  (Except there we have the Romans to blame.  I don't know
who we blame for Chinese.  The Manchus?)


-- 
	 Daniel "Da" von Brighoff    /\          Dilettanten
	(deb5@midway.uchicago.edu)  /__\         erhebt Euch
				   /____\      gegen die Kunst!
