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From: deb5@midway.uchicago.edu (Daniel von Brighoff)
Subject: Re: Transliteration
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References: <7fybe9ur4n.fsf@phoenix.cs.hku.hk> <7fhgkvvffy.fsf@phoenix.cs.hku.hk> <E3Kn96.Mp@midway.uchicago.edu> <32D3038C.3E1F@scruznet.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 18:14:55 GMT
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In article <32D3038C.3E1F@scruznet.com>,
Mike Wright  <darwin@scruznet.com> wrote:

[snip]
>It's obvious that the use of "ji2" for the first syllable of "guitar"
>comes from one of the Southern dialects (Mandarin having neither "ki"
>nor "gi"). Likewise the use of "xi" for Mandarin's missing "hi", and
>"xia" for "ha".

Not so obvious.  Mandarin <j> developed from earlier <g> or <z> before
<i>.  (Similarly, <q> from <k> and <c> before <i>).  I'm not sure when
this change took place in Beijing Mandarin, but I've heard that as late as
this century, the <z>/<c> -> <j>/<q> shift was not complete in Tianjin
Mandarin, spoken a mere 30 miles or so away.

Early romanisations transcribed these sounds etymologically (e.g. <Peking>
for "Beijing" and <Tientsin> for "Tianjin"), but this doesn't mean that
they were preserved in all dialects.  It could be that the romanisers
where influenced by southern dialects, like Cantonese, where the
opposition is preserved, (E.g. Bakging, Tinjin) or even Nanjing dialect, 
which was a prestigious regional standard until the Taiping Rebellion and
the devestation of the city.

Again, this could be evidence of a transliteration tradition that has
outlived its usefullness.  Maybe "guitar" was romanised when Mandarin
still had the opposition, maybe later transliterators were just following
the example set by words transliterated centuries earlier.


-- 
	 Daniel "Da" von Brighoff    /\          Dilettanten
	(deb5@midway.uchicago.edu)  /__\         erhebt Euch
				   /____\      gegen die Kunst!
