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From: deb5@midway.uchicago.edu (Daniel von Brighoff)
Subject: Re: Transliteration [was: Re: Pinyin
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References: <7fybe9ur4n.fsf@phoenix.cs.hku.hk> <7fohf359nc.fsf@phoenix.cs.hku.hk> <5atj5t$av9@pheidippides.axion.bt.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 18:06:56 GMT
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In article <5atj5t$av9@pheidippides.axion.bt.co.uk>,
Donald Fisk <donald@srd.bt.co.uk> wrote:
>Lee Sau Dan ~{@nJX6X~} (sdlee@cs.hku.hk) wrote:
>
>	deb5> I think using
>	deb5> Bopomofo for transliteration is a great idea.  
>
>sdlee> It is good only for Mandarin speakers.  
>
>... who are the majority of Chinese speakers, and who speak what they write.
>Systems similar to Bopomofo could no doubt be developed for Cantonese
>Hokkien or Hakka, but as hardly anyone bothers to write these down
>no one has felt a need.   This is a pity, as they are languages in their
>own right.

Why is it a pity that every divergent speech variety does not have its own
orthography?

>:     Daniel> It would
>:     Daniel> produce more accurate results, would avoid unfelicitous
>:     Daniel> interpretations (think of the original transliteration of
>:     Daniel> Coca Cola, for instance), and would introduce Chinese
>:     Daniel> speakers to using a non-logographic system.
>
>"Bite the wax tadpole" was, I believe, an unofficial transliteration
>of Coca Cola used once in a shop sign.   It was never used by the Coca
>Cola Company.

I stand corrected.

>: Are  you  implying that a non-logographic   system is better?  I don't
>: think so.
>
>I am.   One advantage of using the logographic script, that it gives
>a clue to the origin of the word, is no more useful than a knowledge
>of Anglo-Saxon, Norman French, Latin or Greek is for understanding
>English.   The other advantage, that it enables speakers of different
>"dialects" to communicate, is resolved by using the time spent learning
>the character set to learn other "dialects".

There's also a gain in reading time, at least for Chinese characters..
(Documentation upon request.)

>Ambiguities are generally resolved in context (otherwise
>Chinese wouldn't be able to understand each other when they speak).

One of the advantages of written language over spoken is that it can
dispense with a certain amount of circumlocution.  Words that would
otherwise be ambiguous or obscure are less so when there are distinctive
written forms for homophones and readers have the leisure to puzzle out or
look up erudite terms and neologisms.  Having to write exactly as one
speaks would be a burden indeed.

>In the rare cases where this is not so (classical poetry?), logograms
>could be used in conjunction with a phonetic script such as Bopomofo.
>And don't forget that much classical poetry would be pronounced quite
>differently from modern Mandarin, so many words which are homophones
>today would have been pronounced differently when the poetry was written.

Perhaps bopomofo could be extended to cover such cases?  The words could
be spelled with their etymological final consonants, for instance, and
Mandarin speakers could just ignore them in pronunciation.

>:  I don't think the current Chinese script is difficult for a
>: Chinese to  learn.   In Hongkong,  a child who  have completed primary
>: education (elementary school) can read and write letters in Chinese --
>: with  the  traditional characters.   He  can also  read newspapers and
>: novels.  Is this script that difficult?
>
>It's said to take two years full time to learn to read and write the 
>Chinese script, time which would be better spent studying other things.

*sigh*  As someone who studies languages for fun, I'm always wondering
what "better things" I could be doing if Chinese and English orthography
weren't so complex or the world spoke a single, unified language like
Esperanto.

>Having said that, it's unlikely that Chinese will change script in the
>foreseeable future, so anyone who wants to learn it will have to, er,
>bite the wax tadpole and learn the character set.   They will of course
>need a phonetic transcription, and while I prefer Bopomofo, Pinyin is
>certainly up to the task.


-- 
	 Daniel "Da" von Brighoff    /\          Dilettanten
	(deb5@midway.uchicago.edu)  /__\         erhebt Euch
				   /____\      gegen die Kunst!
