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From: EURMXK@sdcmvs.mvs.sas.com
Subject: Re: Warum "Letzebuergisch"?
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Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 08:22:00 GMT
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In article <31EA8F06.2781E494@pia.bt.co.uk>,
Alwyn Thomas <alwyn@pia.bt.co.uk> writes:
 
>
> Roger Thijs wrote:
>
> > 1. The combination of Germanic (Frankish) dialect (at home)
> > with French as (imposed) language of culture/education/administration
> > has led to a virtual/real disappearance of the Germanic dialects:
> > - examples:
> >         - The "Westhoek" / "Flandre Maritime" in Northern France
> >         - Altbelgien
> >         - Lothringen (maybe except for the villages at the German border).
>
> French was imposed in the part of Belgium known as Flanders as language
> of culture, education, administration, business, etc. but did not
> succeed in driving out the indigenous Dutch dialects.
>
But it's different with the German (Low-Franconian) dialects in
the region around Arlon and in Lorraine.
 
>
> > 2. The combination of Germanic dialects (at home)
> > with Dutch as language of culture/administration/education in Northern Belgi
> > has led to:
> >         - a tendency of the dialect to move to standardization,
>
> This is happening everywhere, not least in the Netherlands itself.
> >         e.g. replacing part of its own vocabulary by Dutch words,
> >         eventually pronounced in the dialect way.
> >         - a (temporary?) tendency to color one's standard Dutch
> >         a bit with some dialect vocabulary and/or pronounciation.
> > giving some kind of an imperfect di-glossy.
>
> Again this is a universal tendency; look at northern England,  north
> Germany for example.
>
> <snip> 
>
> > 3. Immigrants generally do not turn into speaking/learning the dialects
> >   They turn to the "cultural" language of the area,
> >   or keep their own cultural language
> >   (e.g. for the latter: French speaking people in/around Brussels)
> >   In industrial & urban areas the dialects rapidly disappear.
>
> Two considerations here:
> 	Outsiders tend to learn the language or dialect that has the highest
> social status; the local dialect is usually at the bottom of the heap
> (but, significantly, not in Switzerland or in Luxemburg).
> 	It is more difficult to acquire a local dialect because it is typically
> a spoken and not a written medium; the best way is to learn it from your
> parents and your mates at school.
>
> > 4. An other element is an anti-German sensibility:
>
> Anti-German sensibility has worked to the advantage of the local
> dialects in Switzerland and Luxemburg because the people want to
> distinguish themselves from the Germans. One way to do this is to limit
> the role of High German by exalting the local dialect to functions
> normally fullfilled in Germany by the *Standardsprache*, *Missingsch* or
> a *regionale Umgangssprache* (the last two are approximations to the
> standard).
>
> The Alsatian patois is also distinctive, and any anti-German feeling in
> the area (and there is plenty of cause for such feeling) has not
> succeeded in eradicating the germanic speech.
>
Not yet. In most areas under 10% of the primary school children speak
the dialect, so it's easy to imagine when it's going to be extinct.
 
Of course, there are efforts for bilingual classes, by the Cercle Rene'
Schickele mainly, but whether these are going to change things or not -
who knows.  The future of the dialect depends on the active support of the
Alsatian people themselves.
 
Also, you cannot artificially separate the Alsatian dialect(s) from
their written standard - which is High German.  This has been tried in
the past because of anti-German feelings, but this did not help anyone,
nor did it help the dialects to survive, and the protagonists of the
bilingual movement now propagate French, German, and the dialects as
equal means of communication where each of these have their specific
area of use.
 
BTW, the Alsace has always played an important role in German literature
beginning in the early Middle Ages with Otfried von Weissenburg (around
800 AD), later Gottfried von Strassburg (around 1200), Sebastian Brant
(around 1500), Albert Schweitzer and Rene Schickele in this century,
and even nowadays there are writers such as Andre Weckmann who writes
in French, German and Alsatian.
 
Regards, 
Manfred Kiefer
 
> <snip> 
>
> > Hypothetical question:
> > Will the coupling of Arelerland dialects to the Luxemburgian "language"
> > (with more political acceptability and
> > the language being closer to the dialects)
> > give more chances for survival of these dialects
> > than the pre-war coupling to German did?
>
> > 6. The most important thing I think though is:
> > How do local people behave and what their preference is.
>
> The fundamental question is: what advantages does the dialect appear to
> confer on those who speak it?
>
>
> > Studies (Ubac) have shown that the dialects are systematically
> > disappearing in the families with a preference for the French language.
>
> One thing I have never understood about the Fourons is what the
> inhabitants gain by being French-speakers and attached to the declining
> city of Liege rather than to what appears to be the more prosperous
> North - and indeed Netherlands Limburg is just across the border. Has
> anyone examined the mentality of these people?
>
>
> > 7. My point is:
> > History will show what language will finally win in a triglossic area:
> > French - Letzebuergesch - German.
>
> For Luxemburg to be triglossic, it would require the three tongues to be
> divided into three distinct functions. I do not believe this is
> altogether the case (any Luxemburger is more than welcome to correct
> me!); I suggest there is bilingualism in French and German and diglossia
> with respect to the other two and Luxemburgish.
>
> I think Luxemburgisch has an assured future as long as Luxemburg remains
> an independent country; the people will want to emphasise the fact that
> they are neither French nor German.
>
>
> Alwyn
