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From: EURMXK@sdcmvs.mvs.sas.com
Subject: Re: The confusion about countries, states, nations and people (was: Trevlig nationaldag nskas!>
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Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 14:45:00 GMT
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In article <4rggpv$grh@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>,
Johannes Heinecke <johannes@compling.hu-berlin.de> writes:
 
>>I repeatedly get the impression that the concepts of ethnicity,
>>nationality and citizenship tend to get mixed up in Usenet
>>discussions. Why, I don't relly know, but maybe one could suspect that
>>our different mother tongues are partly guilty?
>>
>>Let's make a little table of the hard words!
>>
>>
>>English   German    Scandinavian   Finnish
>>
>>people    Volk      Folk           kansa
>>nation    Nation    nation         kansa kunta
>>province            landskap       maa kunta
>>county                 "              "
>>country   Land      land           maa
>>state     Staat     delstat        osa valtio
>>federation "        stat           valtio
>>realm     Reich     rike           valta kunta
>>Empire    Keisertum Kejsardme
>>
>
>I would be very careful which simple equations with concepts
>as complicated as `people', `nation', `country'.
>There has been an endless discussion among german philosophers
>on the notion of `Volk', `Nation' etc. And no result yet.
>
>E.g. take `country' in German (`Land') all 16 units of
>modern Germany are `L"ander'. And these 16 L"ander make one  Land
>if country == Land than the translation would be 16 countries
>make one country. But this sounds odd.
>
>What is a province? A political unit? So there is no German
>translation, cause there is no political unit in Germaby, Switzerland
>and Austria called Provinz. But the word exists, meaning something
>like ``not a metroplitan area''
>
Let's see if I can muddy the water a little more: "province"
did exist as a political sub-division in Germany before World
War II.  Prussia had provinces, and so did even a small "state"
such as Hessen-Darmstadt.
 
And, since other countries such as Canada have provinces the
concept of a province as a political unit is well-known in German.
 
>BTW, Empire translates better with Kaiserreich, or even Imperium
>(esp. for empires other than the German Kaiserreich)
>And you could find other words, which make it less clearer.
>
>>
>>As far as I understand it, Sweden is one of the least complicated
>>cases along with Iceland, Poland and Holland, with One nation, One
>>language, One country and One state. This simplicity might get us
>>Swedes particularly prone to make errors and thereby hurting peoples
>>feelings.
>
>At least the Netherlands have minorities, e.g. Frisians
>(Holland is a province of the Netherlands)
>
>>Norway comes then, with Two written languages for One people in One
>>nation, One country and One state.
>>
>
>>Switzerland is another interesting variant: On nation but Three
>>languages in One federation of many states. Isn't there several
>>ethnical groups, and still we think of them as One people?
>
>Four languages. I would not call the Kantons states.
>
>>Germany consist of One nation, One people but in several states.
>And the Sorbs, Frisians, Denish.
>Some would say there are several german people (less polite: tribes)
>Namely the Bavarians, Swabians, Hessians, Saxonians, Eastfrisians (NOT
>Frisians)
>etc etc.
>
Yes, one has to be careful to discriminate between ethnic
minorities that do exist in Germany (Frisians, Sorbs, Danes,
Sinti) and what you call "tribes" - I think "Landsmannschaften"
is difficult to translate.
 
Regards, 
Manfred Kiefer
 
>I think words like `nation', `people' cannot be simply translated,
>but have to be defined in each language. This definition of the concept
>may be translatable to this or that language by a shorter or longer
>word/phrase.
>
>Words like water, apple, horse and even love are far easier!
>
>Best wishes
>Johannes
>
>--
>
>Johannes Heinecke
>Computerlinguistik
>Humboldt Universit"at zu Berlin
><heinecke@compling.hu-berlin.de>
>http://www.compling.hu-berlin.de/~johannes
>
