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From: deb5@midway.uchicago.edu (Daniel von Brighoff)
Subject: Re: The confusion about countries, states, nations and people (was: Trevlig nationaldag nskas!>
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References: <Du7FrE.CM8@midway.uchicago.edu> <19960708110527EURMXK@sdcmvs.mvs.sas.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 14:30:10 GMT
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In article <19960708110527EURMXK@sdcmvs.mvs.sas.com>,
 <EURMXK@sdcmvs.mvs.sas.com> wrote:
>In article <Du7FrE.CM8@midway.uchicago.edu>,
>deb5@midway.uchicago.edu (Daniel von Brighoff) writes:
> 
>>In article <4rg41v$b0e@nef.ens.fr>, Henrik Ernoe  <erno@wotan.ens.fr> wrote:
>>>jmo@lysator.liu.se (Johan Olofsson) wrote:
>>[snip]
>>>>Germany consist of One nation, One people but in several states.
>>>
>>>ups: you are forgetting the danes, frisians and sorbs. None of these
>>>would like to be included in the german nation.
>>
>>        More importantly, IMNSHO, *everyone* is forgetting Pakistanis,
>>Turks, Algerians, Filipinos, Rumanians, and so on and so on.  At least
>>one poster *did* include gypsies#.  They've only been living in Europe
>>for about 25 generations or so.  Even as Europe is getting closer to
>>being "one state", it is growing more "multinational."
>>
>Talking about Germany only, the question was about citizenship vs.
>nationality. Danes, Frisians, Sorbs (and many "gypsies") are
>German citizens, though they would perhaps not consider themselves
>as Germans - or, well, I am not sure about Sorbs and Frisians, or
>gypsies, many would perhaps simply consider themselves as Germans.

	The question was more complicated than citizenship vs. nationality,
as there is the additional distinction of nation vs. ethnicity.

>As for Turks, Italians, Greeks and others - many of whom have been born
>in Germany, they are not German citizens. Whether you like this or
>not - this is just the way it is.

	They are not *all* German citizens, but thousands are and these
should not be forgotten.  Although Germany recognises jus sanguinis, it
also allows naturalisation.  And just as thousands of Poles, Czechs, and
other immigrant workers became German citizens in the first half of this
century, thousands of Turks, Vietnamese, Russians, and others will be-
come citizens in the second half.

	And where do foreign residents fit in this scheme anyway?  Even
though a woman in Germany may be Turkish by nationality and citizenship
and Kurdish by ethnicity, she is definitely part of the German economy 
and the German society.  Therefore, is she not a part of the German "state" 
even if this is not officially recognised?

	(I'm not trying to make a moral point here, just a practical one.)
-- 
	 Daniel "Da" von Brighoff    /\          Dilettanten
	(deb5@midway.uchicago.edu)  /__\         erhebt Euch
				   /____\      gegen die Kunst!
