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From: deb5@midway.uchicago.edu (Daniel von Brighoff)
Subject: Re: The confusion about countries, states, nations and people (was: Trevlig nationaldag nskas!>
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References: <4p6cfv$670@mn5.swip.net> <31C8B5EB.7235@fp.co.nz> <yzz91d0zlg7.fsf@tingeling.lysator.liu.se> <4rg41v$b0e@nef.ens.fr>
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 03:16:26 GMT
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In article <4rg41v$b0e@nef.ens.fr>, Henrik Ernoe  <erno@wotan.ens.fr> wrote:
>jmo@lysator.liu.se (Johan Olofsson) wrote:
[snip]
>>Germany consist of One nation, One people but in several states.
>
>ups: you are forgetting the danes, frisians and sorbs. None of these 
>would like to be included in the german nation.

	More importantly, IMNSHO, *everyone* is forgetting Pakistanis,
Turks, Algerians, Filipinos, Rumanians, and so on and so on.  At least
one poster *did* include gypsies#.  They've only been living in Europe
for about 25 generations or so.  Even as Europe is getting closer to
being "one state", it is growing more "multinational."

>>Finally, in UK several Peoples live in different nations and speak
>>different languages but they do live in the same nation (don't they)?
>>Maggie Mulvaney above argues that they also live in different
>>countries. Who am I to oppose, but I'm not 100% sure all Brits would
>>aggree.
>>
>>Comments?
>
>Well as far as I can see the main confusion is between nationality 
>and citizenship. The German minority in DK are germans (part of the 
>german nation) but with Danish citizenship,i;e subjects of Queen 
>Margrethe II. 

	It's *even* not that simple.  In its English-language ads,
Catalonia (that is to say, the Generalitat de Catalunya) calls itself 
"A nation of six-million people in the heart of Europe."  Very few
Catalans are separatists and even those that are would not call 
Catalonia a "country" or a "state".  It was a "state" at one time 
(though arguably not a "nation-state", being a part of the "country"
of the Crown of Aragon for most of its existence) but is now a part 
of the country of Spain.  How many nations are there in Spain anyway?  
At least as many as there are recognised official languages, and pro-
bably many more.  After all, it occupies the territory of at least
seven former states.

	All citizens of Catalonia are citizens of Spain, but not vice-
versa.  Some members of the "gypsy nation" (or one of the gypsy nations,
depending on how pan your pan-gypsy notions are) are also Spanish citizens,
some are Catalonian citizens on top of that, and some are neither.  Simi-
larly, all citizens of Wales are citizens of Britain.  Some of these are
members of the Welsh nation and ethnicity, some are not, and some members
of the Welsh nation have never been citizens of Britain.  Many Welsh
citizens are also South Asians.  Some are gypsies.  What nation do these 
belong to?  I can't imagine how they'd answer that question.

#I know someone on the Net is going to criticise my use of this term and
suggest a fashionable substitute like "Sinti and Roma" which manages to
be both more cumbersome and less inclusive.  (What about Vlaxs?  What about
Manouches?)  Some gypsies find the term offensive; some use it in their
official publications.  Until someone invents an inoffensive alternative
with the same range of meaning, I hope the former group will be understanding.
-- 
	 Daniel "Da" von Brighoff    /\          Dilettanten
	(deb5@midway.uchicago.edu)  /__\         erhebt Euch
				   /____\      gegen die Kunst!
