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From: rturkel@cas.org (Rick Turkel)
Subject: Re: Vowelless words
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Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 06:34:46 GMT
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In article <3m0mqv$3sl@mordred.cc.jyu.fi>,
Jorma Kyppo  <jorma@jytko.jyu.fi> wrote:
>> |> >In article <3k6086$ist$2@mhadg.production.compuserve.com>, Jacques Thury  <75107.2170@CompuServe.COM> wrote:
>> |> >>Serbo-Croatian:
>> |> >>    trg = place, market
>> |> >>    Island of Krk
>
>In Slovak 'krk' is throat, because Finns like vowels we use
>to say 'kurkku' when we use this word loaned from Slavic languages.
>
>The most difficult "almost" Vowelless Slovak word I know is 'zmrzlina',
>which means ice cream and to mention some easy ones 'vlk' = wolf and
>'prst' = finger.

Please, people, read what's already been written in a thread before
repeating the same incorrect information.  In all of these examples, the
"r" and "l" _are vowels_.  They may bear the word stress, may show
phonemic length distinctions, and function as vowels in all other
respects.

>To give examples of words where are plenty of vowells I tell some
>Finnish sayings like 'haeaeyoeaie' (ae and oe = a and o with dots),
>that means 'an intention in wedding night' or 'hauen leuan auettua
>ui ruoat aavaa auerrantaa kauas vaaraa'. The last one was indeed,
>a bit artificial and tells that 'when pike's mouth opens then all the
>food escapes the danger along the wide hazecoast'. A bit crazy
>I suppose.
>
>But coming back in more serious things. I did follow this thread about
>the voweless words and if I understood right, the problem was if there
>exist vowels in the word even though they are not written. As we know,
>there are many languages (hebrew for instance) where vowels aren't
>written at all.

This isn't the issue here; Hebrew vowels are pronounced.

>On the other hand there are such words like 'krk' I mentioned above,
>where are no vowels. Like I said in Finnish we use to write and say
>the same word with vowels, 'kurkku'. But when I was "listening myself"
>how I spelled 'krk', then what did I hear? Yes I heard me saying
>"kyryk" very quickly!

This is only because you have no experience pronouncing a syllabic "r."
However, the Serbs, Croats, Slovenes, Macedonians, Czechs, and Slovaks
have no such problem, and for them there is no additional vowel sound.

>Now comes my question. What are actually the scientific definitions
>for vowel and consonant?
>
>When we pronounce consonants, we have to use our lips or teeth so that
>they touch mechanically to tongue or themselves (lips).
>When saying vowels, we need also at least lips, but we only change
>their form. Is there any definition how short (in time) the vowel
>can be, that we call it a vowel (my "kyryk" example)?

This is irrelevant here.  Any liquid or nasal can function as a vowel.

>Is it altogether at all possible to say any consonant without a vowel?

Sure.  How about "s" and "z" for example, or a trilled "r" as above?

>And what about the special sounds in Bushman and Australian languages,
>mean whistles, snaps, clicks, etc. what's their relation to consonants?

They're consonants.

>I'm not a linguistic, perhaps the answer is trivial for them.
>Or are there different schools around this, which is usual.
>
>Jorma Kyppo
>Laukaa, Finland
>jorma@jytko.jyu.fi


-- 
Rick Turkel         (___  _____  _  _  _  _  __     _  ___   _   _  _  ___
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Rich or poor, it's good to have money.  Ko rano rani | u jamu pada.
