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From: kriha_p@actrix.gen.nz (Paul J. Kriha)
Subject: Re: Vowelless words
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Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 16:04:19 GMT
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In article <3m0mqv$3sl@mordred.cc.jyu.fi>,
   Jorma Kyppo <jorma@jytko.jyu.fi> wrote:
>
>> |> >In article <3k6086$ist$2@mhadg.production.compuserve.com>, Jacques 
Thury  <75107.2170@CompuServe.COM> wrote:
>> |> >>Serbo-Croatian:
>> |> >>    trg = place, market
>> |> >>    Island of Krk
>
>In Slovak 'krk' is throat, because Finns like vowels we use
>to say 'kurkku' when we use this word loaned from Slavic languages.
>
>The most difficult "almost" Vowelless Slovak word I know is 'zmrzlina',

How about 'scvrnkls' 'zcvrkl' or 'zmrzl' ?  :-)

>which means ice cream and to mention some easy ones 'vlk' = wolf and
>'prst' = finger.

[...]

>But coming back in more serious things. I did follow this thread about
>the voweless words and if I understood right, the problem was if there
>exist vowels in the word even though they are not written. As we know,
>there are many languages (hebrew for instance) where vowels aren't
>written at all.
>On the other hand there are such words like 'krk' I mentioned above,
>where are no vowels. Like I said in Finnish we use to write and say
>the same word with vowels, 'kurkku'. But when I was "listening myself"
>how I spelled 'krk', then what did I hear? Yes I heard me saying
>"kyryk" very quickly!

The Slovak or Czech 'r' or 'l' often stands-in for a vowel.
The Slavs can actually sustain the 'r' indefinitelly (until
they run out of breath, that is :-).
The tip of the tongue keeps vibrating.
Some Slav languages use palatalised 'r^', which most Europeans
find totally unpronouncable, and even that they can sustain
without any schwas around it. 

The 'l' is a different story, though. When it's used as
a vowel in the middle of a syllable, it's followed
by a schwa.

>Now comes my question. What are actually the scientific definitions
>for vowel and consonant?
>
>When we pronounce consonants, we have to use our lips or teeth so that
>they touch mechanically to tongue or themselves (lips).
>When saying vowels, we need also at least lips, but we only change
>their form. Is there any definition how short (in time) the vowel
>can be, that we call it a vowel (my "kyryk" example)?
>
>Is it altogether at all possible to say any consonant without a vowel?
>And what about the special sounds in Bushman and Australian languages,
>mean whistles, snaps, clicks, etc. what's their relation to consonants?
>
>I'm not a linguistic, perhaps the answer is trivial for them.
>Or are there different schools around this, which is usual.
>
>Jorma Kyppo
>Laukaa, Finland
>jorma@jytko.jyu.fi
