Newsgroups: sci.lang
Path: cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!das-news2.harvard.edu!news2.near.net!news.mathworks.com!newshost.marcam.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!comp.vuw.ac.nz!actrix.gen.nz!kriha
From: kriha_p@actrix.gen.nz (Paul J. Kriha)
Subject: Re: Danish Numbers (was: Linguistics for Kids)
Message-ID: <3khhun$kqs_001@actrix.gen.nz>
Sender: news@actrix.gen.nz (News Administrator)
Organization: Kriha Consultants Pty Ltd
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 1995 15:17:43 GMT
References: <241561598.33328314@inform-bbs.dk> <D5ItLv.Gu@midway.uchicago.edu>
X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #3
X-Nntp-Posting-Host: kriha.actrix.gen.nz
Lines: 67

In article <D5ItLv.Gu@midway.uchicago.edu>,
   rmk4@woodlawn.uchicago.edu (Robert Knippen) wrote:
>In article <241561598.33328314@inform-bbs.dk>,
>OleStig Andersen <OSA@inform-bbs.dk> suggested the following
>rationalization of the words for certain numbers in Danish:
>
>
>>This number system is a relict from a crazy old 20-based system where the
>>tens run like this
>>
>>10 = ti
>>20 = tyve
>>30 = tredive
>>40 = fyrre
>>50 = halvtredsindstyve  = halvtredje sinde tyve  = half third times twenty =
>>2,5*20
>>60 = tresindstyve  = tre sinde tyve  = three times twenty = 3*20
>>70 = halvfjerdsindstyve  = halvfjerde sinde tyve  = half fourth times twenty
>>= 3,5*20
>>80 = firsindstyve  = fire sinde tyve  = four times twenty = 4*20
>>90 = halvfemsindstyve  = halvfem sinde tyve  = half fifth times twenty =
>>4,5*20
>>
>>halv = half
>>og = and
>>sinde/sinds = times
>
>I'm afraid that just like every other attempt I've seen by speakers 
>of Danish to explain their number system, this doesn't work.  The 
>math simply doesn't work.  "half-third" just doesn't get you 2.5, no 
>matter how hard you try.  (at least not logically--more on this later)
>In fact, the problem with 50, 70, and 90 is 
>just restated in your solution.  The problem is that it isn't clear 
>what to do with the occurence
>of "halv" in the form.  If it had its normal meaning, _something_ ought
>to be halved. Well, the only thing you can halve to get 2.5 is 5, and the 
>only thing you can halve to get 50 is one hundred.  Making "half-third"
>equal to 2.5 is the same as making "half-sixty" (half three times 20) 
>equal to 50, so we haven't gotten anywhere.
>
>The immediate response to this by a Danish speaker is to notice that 
>halvtredje "half-third" _is_ the way to say 2.5 in Danish.  So the 
>problem really isn't with 50, 70, and 90 at all.  It's with these
>strange ways that words for 2.5, 3.5, and 4.5 are formed.  When somebody
>explains how half-third (or fourth or fifth) can come to mean 2.5 (or 3.5
>or 4.5, respectively), then I'll believe there is some logic to the system.
>
>(note:  I realize that 1/2 times 3 equals 2.5, but we're missing the
>word for "times" and we have a form that means "third," not "three.")


I don't know Danish at all. So it's perhaps in my ignorance that
I don't find this particularly crazy or puzzling at all.
Doesn't "halvtredsindstyve" simply means "half into the third twenty",
"tresindstyve" means "three twenties", "halvfjerdsindstyve" means
"half into the fourth twenty" etc.?

It reminds me of the way the Czechs refer to time of the day:

Eg. 
"quarter past two" = "Ctvrt na tri" = literally "quarter onto three" 
"Half past two"    = "Pul treti"    = literally "half the third"
"quarter to three" = "Tri ctvrte na tri" = literally "three quarters onto 
three"    

Paul JK

