Newsgroups: sci.lang
Path: cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!news.sei.cmu.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!agate!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!warwick!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news.ultranet.com!zombie.ncsc.mil!news.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!ddsw1!redstone.interpath.net!sas!mozart.unx.sas.com!MVS.sas.com!EURMXK
From: EURMXK@MVS.sas.com
Subject: Re: The name of the German nation
Sender: MVS NNTP News Reader <NNMVS@MVS.sas.com>
Message-ID: <19950118033519EURMXK@MVS.sas.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 1995 08:35:00 GMT
References: <3fh42m$s77@bone.think.com>
Nntp-Posting-Host: sdcmvs.mvs.sas.com
Organization: SAS Institute Inc.
Lines: 64

In article <3fh42m$s77@bone.think.com>,
sandee@think.com (Daan Sandee) writes:
 
>In article <3fcc8h$h5c@gordon.enea.se> sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog) writes:
>>Daniel von Brighoff (deb5@midway.uchicago.edu) writes:
>>>So "Deutsch," like so many other national self-designations, simply
>>>means "of the people" and didn't gain currency in German-speaking
>>>areas until well into the Middle Ages.  The multiplicity of names
>>>for Germany is understandable when one considers a) that the German
>>>nation took shape in the middle of Europe and b) it didn't become
>>>a unified nation-state until 1871.
>
>Germany was a kingdom, roughly the area where German and Dutch are
>spoken today, from 843 until it was elevated into an Empire in 961.
>There was a hereditary (Saxon) monarchy.  True, the king's reign wasn't
>very effective. But not less so than, for instance, the French king's
>reign in the same period. The difference is that France (and England)
>became more and more cohesive from the 10th century onward, while Germany
>became less and less cohesive, until 1830. And the Germans did share a
 
I'd rather say until 1806; the year which marked the formal end of
the Holy Roman Empire. The Napoleonic 'Rheinbund' (Confederation
Rhenane), and the 'Deutsche Bund' (German Confederation) were loose
confedarations, the former under French hegemony, the latter under
Austro-Prussian hegemenoy. The growing tensions between Austria and
Prussia eventually undermined and destroyed the Confederation and led
to the 'Norddeutscher Bund' (North German Federation) under
Prussian hegemony in 1866 and the 'Second Empire' ('Zweites
Kaiserreich') in 1871.
 
>common language (one may regard 10th-century German as one language ;
>the split between High German and Low German/Dutch was a bit later.)
>>
>>Now, wait a minute here. We had something called the Holy German-
>>Roman Empire. This construction eroded by time, and became a loose
>>gathering of many small states, but it did exist initially. True,
>>it wasn't a nation-state way back then in the 10th century, but
>>then no state was as the concept wasn't invented.
 
Very true. And the Holy Roman Empire was an 'anomaly' - at least from
the 16th century onwards.
 
>>
>>But what was the name of this state in contemporary language?
>>Did it only have a Latin name, or did it have a Germanic name
>>too? (And then I'm really only interested in the "German" part.)
>
>Das heilige roemische Reich deutscher Nation. Unfortunately, I have
>no idea how old the name is.
>
 
I think the term was coined in the 15th century.
 
Regards, 
M. Kiefer
 
> "Ce corps qui s'appelait et qui s'appelle encore le saint empire romain
>  n'etait en aucune maniere ni saint, ni romain, ni empire."
> Voltaire (1769). From Essai sur les moeurs et l'esprit des nations.
> He is speaking in the past tense ; unfortunately, I don't know about
> what period.
>
>Daan Sandee                                           sandee@cmns.think.com
>Mountain View, CA 94041
