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From: deb5@ellis.uchicago.edu (Daniel von Brighoff)
Subject: Re: Pronouncing your name in another language
Message-ID: <1995Jan16.153436.23677@midway.uchicago.edu>
Sender: news@uchinews.uchicago.edu (News System)
Reply-To: deb5@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago
References: <3fc8bm$q11@ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <1995Jan16.014435.25029@midway.uchicago.edu> <3fctfa$3tq@ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 1995 15:34:36 GMT
Lines: 108

In article <3fctfa$3tq@ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> Marek1@ix.netcom.com (Marek Konski) writes:
>In <1995Jan16.014435.25029@midway.uchicago.edu> deb5@ellis.uchicago.edu 
>(Daniel von Brighoff) writes: 
>
>>
>
>>Incorrect.  I used Copenhagen... [deleted]
>
>..one should prefer the former. 
>
>This is correct. But also is correct that the original subject were the 
>personal names so why did you write about Copenhagen? 

This is the third time I'm telling you this, so read very carefully:
because a previous poster (whose post I have since deleted so I can't
show to you, otherwise I would) expanded the discussion to include
place names as well.  If anyone out there has saved this post, will
you please send a copy to Mr. Konski so that he stops badgering me on
this point.

This is not a classroom discussion.  This is a Usenet discussion.
We're allowed to deviate from the original subject as we wish.
>
>That's obvious. You wanted to prove that there is a more general 
>principle justifying personal names changing and that it envolves also 
>placenames.

That's your false interpretation.  Please do not put words in my
mouth.
>
>I opposed to making a Jose a Joe. I also said that he himself is 
>entitled to do so, if he wishes. His name  -- his business.

For the third time again:  so is everyone else on this thread!

>I never had anything against Warsaw or Cracow. I just tried to point out 
>that even if you were right, you used arguments which did not prove what 
>you were trying to prove.  

How would you know?  Your comments make it obvious that you don't
understand what I'm trying to prove.

>In this case I strongly suggest to yell "raaatuuunkuuu!!" because in 
>this way you would get a chance of being saved.

I'd have a chance if I said "Pomoc!", but nothing near the chance I'd
have if I said "Help!," and that's the point.
>
>>One of the original questions that several people here have been
>>trying to answer is "Do _you_ translate _your_ name when talking
>>a foreign language?"  No one who's posted has said one should change
>>someone's name against their will!
>
>But this is what people really do!

So argue with *them* about it, not with us!  The Russians say
"Golivut" for "Hollywood."  What's your point?

>Besides, how would a Muhammad, Mao, Slawomir, Geza or Solidariusz 
>"translate" himself into English or German or Spanish? If they are not 
>supposed to do so, why are the others? On the basis that their names 
>share a common ancestral name with some names in these languages?

Who's saying they're "supposed" to do so?  In cases like these, a 
person may adopt either a nickname that is easier for Americans to
pronounce (i.e. Soli for Solidariusz) or a similar-sounding but
unrelated name.  My Asian friends do this all the time.

>What would you do if you spoke Swahili? To what would you change your 
>name while introducing yourself to those people?

I'd have to modify it to fit Swahili phonology, wouldn't I?  I think
it would end up as "Danieli," but I'm not sure.

>>There's no assumption here that there "shouldn't" be female forms of
>>surnames; there's an assumptiont that they simply don't exist.
>
>On what is that assumption based?

Their infrequency in the USA.  I'm sure that Americans who deal with
immigrant Slavs on a regular basis are used to this names by now, but
they are in the minority.  Already, many Americans are accustomed to
the surname-first convention of most East Asian languages.
>
>Please read in poster 29930 about changing a Godunov (I suppose) to 
>Goodenough. If this is not ignorance and arrogance together, what is?

That change also took place several generations ago.  Are you going
to keep excoriating us for the sins of our ancestors?

>I know even about certain Okonski having been changed to O'Konski. Oh, 
>joy of joys!

He and Mr. Goodenough have every right and opportunity to change
their surnames back to their proper forms, if they so wish.  If they
wish, they can call themselves Mr. Frou-frou and Dicky the One-Eyed
Wonder Loon.  Contrast this to the laws of some European countries
(France and Germay for instance) where children may not be allowed to
bear personal names not included on a state-approved list.

This discussion is becoming repetitive and frustrating.  Mr. Konski,
if you *still* do not understand the content of my posts, please 
email me for clarification.

-- 
	 Daniel "Da" von Brighoff    /\          Dilettanten
	(deb5@midway.uchicago.edu)  /__\         erhebt Euch
				   /____\      gegen die Kunst!
