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From: deb5@ellis.uchicago.edu (Daniel von Brighoff)
Subject: Re: Pronouncing your name in another language
Message-ID: <1995Jan16.061945.4767@midway.uchicago.edu>
Sender: news@uchinews.uchicago.edu (News System)
Reply-To: deb5@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago
References: <3f9l2v$l20@ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <1995Jan15.221000.16067@midway.uchicago.edu> <3fcha9$t3s@ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 1995 06:19:45 GMT
Lines: 136

In article <3fcha9$t3s@ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> Marek1@ix.netcom.com (Marek Konski) writes:
>In <1995Jan15.221000.16067@midway.uchicago.edu> deb5@ellis.uchicago.edu 
>(Daniel von Brighoff) writes: 
>
>
>>So when one encountres an American name with the element "stein,"
>>one never knows whether the bearer uses:
>>1) the Standard German pronunciation ([shtain])
>
>>6) an Americanised variant of this (likewise).
>
>>To be sure, certain variants (2 and 4b) are more common than
>>others, but the point is that even knowing the language of origin
>>may be of little help in divining someone's personal preference.
>
>Very nice examples indeed and a very nice smoke screen. It is clear 
>to me that you wont to avoid the problem. The proof is that albeit I 
>also mentioned Italians, you skipped that problem because there was not 
>a plausible excuse for this kind of behavior.

I don't know Italian culture well enough to be able to explain their
motivations.
>
>>
>If I call
>>my friend David Wojechowski [vojexofski] instead of [woudzh@hauski]", 
>>he won't recogise that I'm talking to him. 
>
>He won't recognize because he never used the original form, which his 
>ancestors were forced to abandon for the reasons, which I already 
>mentioned. Besides, I did not write about such cases, but about 
>instances of not using the original form while well knowing it.   
>
>I'm sure that if Poland controlled all of Europe (an area smaller and 
>encompassing less cultural diversity than the United States), the same 
>problem would arise.
>
>You mentioned ignorance? Europe is not smaller than the United States 
>and does not encompass less cultural diversity (what an idea?).

Europe (excluding the USSR and Turkey): 1.9 million sq. miles
USA					3.6 million sq. miles
Source:  Funk and Wagnalls Standard College Dictionary (1977 ed.)

As for cultural diversity, there are first generation immigrants
in the US from *every country in the world*.  They have all brought
their native cultures with them.  Can Europe match that?  

>"To control" -- this is the key/buzz-word. If you "control" you can do 
>whatever you wish. The reason is not the large area and cultural 
>diversity, but ignorance born of arrogance.  

Untrue.  There are always limits to government control, moreso under a 
democratic system.

>You probably belong to those who think that everybody's name in Poland 
>is Kowalski or sort of, in Germany Muller, and in Italy Rossi. Why it 
>did not occur to you that there are Bernadotte's in Germany, Rosatis, 
>Werners, Millers, Bardinis, Maurins, De Virions, Staniszkises, 
>Tanianises, Zanussis, Chopins, Semeniuks and who-knows-what-else in 
>Poland, Millers in Italy, Dunins in Greece and Buonapartes and Belmondos 
>in France? 

Who says it did not occur to me?  After all, I know that the former
president of the German SDP was Oskar La Fontaine.  The current French
Minister for Culture is Jack Lang.  One of Catalonia's most reknown
writers is Joan Perucho (from Peruccio).  I'm well aware of the 
diversity of surnames in Europe.  It still doesn't approach that of
the States, however, and if you doubt my word, go to a library and
compare phone books.

>As far as I know, the pronunciations of these names are very similar to 
>originals even though decades or even centuries have passed since the 
>ancestors of these people left their homelands and settled elsewhere. 

Try my mother's family, for instance.  They originated in Southern
France or Italy under the name "Cond'e" and came to Germany in the
16th century.  Now they are called "Gund.  And I've heard more
slaughtered Polish names in Germany then I think you would care to 
know.

>It never occured to me or to anybody else to call one of the Warsaw 
>University professors (Maurin) Ma-u-reen instead of More,(n) because 
>this was the way he himself pronounced his surname. The decisive 
>factor (ar least I think so) is _always_ the preference of the name's 
>bearer. 

That's exactly what I said!  Please reread my previous posts before
'correcting' me again.

>What I was talking about was the problem of people _fully aware_ of the 
>original pronunciation and name bearers' preferences but nevertheless 
>trying to impose their own preferences on them, many times in very ugly 
>manner and against those people express will. If you do not know the 
>people preferences all you have to do is to ask them. 

If that was your subject, you did not make yourself sufficiently clear.
You asked why Poles seemed to do a better job of pronouncing foreign
names than other peoples, including Americans.  You're theory was that
they were more arrogant and ignorant than the Poles.  I explained that,
at least in the case of America, much of this ignorance is understand-
able.  Most people in this country do not know whether Albert Einstein
personally pronounced his surname [ainstain] or [ainshtain].  They
naturally prefer the former, more-Americanised variant, but would
use the latter if told it was correct.

There are several different subjects under discussion in this thread.
Please be quite explicit about which one you are addressing in any
given post.

>I do not believe that there are more than one dialectal forms of Jan 
>(pr. Yan) and that this is a word too difficult for and Italian, German 
>or American to pronounce. 

'Jan' (pron. [dzh%n] is a common feminine name in the USA.  Therefore, 
Americans will be reluctant to apply this name to a man if they see it
written.  However, nobody I knew ever had trouble remembering or
employing the pronunciation [jan] with my friend Jan Cerny once he
told them what it was.

'Jan' [jan] is a common German masculine name.  I've never heard a
German mispronounce it.

I don't know what the Italians' problem with 'Jan' is.

>For me, personnally, Nguyen Hui Tong will be always Nguyen Hui Tong 
>unless he will wish otherwise. 

And likewise with every poster who has contributed to this thread.
However, if a Vietnamese-American asks me to say [win] or [wen]
instead of [ngwjen], I will accede to his wishes immediately.

-- 
	 Daniel "Da" von Brighoff    /\          Dilettanten
	(deb5@midway.uchicago.edu)  /__\         erhebt Euch
				   /____\      gegen die Kunst!
