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From: deb5@ellis.uchicago.edu (Daniel von Brighoff)
Subject: Re: Pronouncing your name in another language
Message-ID: <1995Jan15.020738.21297@midway.uchicago.edu>
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Reply-To: deb5@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago
References: <moose-1101951036570001@pacsci-28.pacsci.org> <3f5tif$l5o@nic.umass.edu> <9501423.14645@mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU>
Date: Sun, 15 Jan 1995 02:07:38 GMT
Lines: 91

In article <9501423.14645@mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU> thed@mundil.cs.mu.OZ.AU (Paul Benjamin DWERRYHOUSE) writes:

>When I was being taught German, my teacher always said that people's names were
>sacred. You shouldn't even think about translating them when addressing or 
>referring to them. Perfectly logical and, more importantly, very good manners!

I still maintain:  the very *best* manners demand that one accede to the
addressees wishes, whether it coincides with the general principle of
not translating or not.  Not everyone envelopes her name with a 
sacred aura.

>
>But I'm inclined to think that the names of towns and countries are fair
>game for translation (when required), if for no other reason than differences
>between native and foreign names for any given place are simply due to 
>that being the word for the place in one's language! (That was very badly 
>put, but I had much trouble with it. Ie. Prague is simply the English word
>for Praha, for example).

And if you're speaking English, your interlocutor might well not
recognise your attempt at a native pronunciation.

>		Deutschland
>		in English: Germany       
>		in French:  Allemagne
>		and in Czech: something like 'Nemecky'

Nemecko (hacek over the first e) from a root meaning "mute, unable
to speak" (because they couldn't speak Slavic).
>
>These all seem so very different to Deutschland. Where did they originate?

In general, from whichever Germanic group was closest to the
speakers whoadopted the name.  The Alemanni settled in SW Germany,
Alsace-Lorraine, and Switzerland.  As a result, their French-speaking
neighbors adopted generalised their name to refer to all German-speakers.

Similarly, the Finns (or if one prefers, the Suomalaiset) came into
contact with the Saxones.  Thus, their name for Germany is "Saksa."

>(I realise that English went vaguely wrong with the people that they call
> 'Dutch', but from where did the word 'German' come?)

"German" is from Latin and doesn't gain currency in English until
the 16th century.  Historians speculate that the Latin name "Germani"
came from a Celtic term which originally designated a Celtic people
dwelling in what later became German territory.  Such confusion was
frequent in those days.

"Dutch" was current in English before then, but it referred to the
West Germanic peoples in general (i.e. the Germans and the Netherlanders).
After the term "German" gained currency, the semantic field of "Dutch"
was reduced.  It has the same origin as German "deutsch," Scandanavian 
"tysk", and Latin "Teutones," i.e. Teut. theudisko- from theuda "people."

So "Deutsch," like so many other national self-designations, simply
means "of the people" and didn't gain currency in German-speaking
areas until well into the Middle Ages.  The multiplicity of names
for Germany is understandable when one considers a) that the German
nation took shape in the middle of Europe and b) it didn't become
a unified nation-state until 1871.

>And another example is Finland, where the native word is Suomeen (I think)...

That's the genitive.  The nominative is "Suomi."

>what caused the word Finn to come into existance?

Its story is similar to that of "German."  "Finn" is a Norse word of
uncertain origin that was originally applied to the Sami (Lapps) of
present-day Finnmark and Finland.  Gradually, the ancestors of the
Finns settled these areas and displaced the Sami.  A new word (Lapp)
was applied to them and the older designation was limited to the
Suomalaiset.

>[And as a brief aside, wasn't there someone a few years ago claiming that we
> had got it all wrong, and should still refer to Beijing as Peking?
> Interestingly enough, we still refer to Shanghai as Shanghai, at least
> here in Australia, or is that one of the new versions?]

There's always some goofball claiming something of the sort.  You can
safely ignore him.

As for Shanghai, it's a rare bird:  a name identical in both Wade-Giles
(Pei-ching) and Pinyin (Beijing) romanisations.  Hainan Island is another
example (although "island" is tao in W-G, dao in Pinyin).  Can anyone
think of any others?
-- 
	 Daniel "Da" von Brighoff    /\          Dilettanten
	(deb5@midway.uchicago.edu)  /__\         erhebt Euch
				   /____\      gegen die Kunst!
