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From: deb5@ellis.uchicago.edu (Daniel von Brighoff)
Subject: Re: Lunatic orthography (was Re: Esperanto as a stepping stone?
Message-ID: <1995Jan14.231300.15371@midway.uchicago.edu>
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Reply-To: deb5@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago
References: <3f0bipINNook@SUNED.ZOO.CS.YALE.EDU> <1995Jan12.190214.14090@midway.uchicago.edu> <3f4uh8INN4na@SUNED.ZOO.CS.YALE.EDU>
Date: Sat, 14 Jan 1995 23:13:00 GMT
Lines: 73

In article <3f4uh8INN4na@SUNED.ZOO.CS.YALE.EDU> horne-scott@cs.yale.edu (Scott Horne) writes:
>In article <1995Jan12.190214.14090@midway.uchicago.edu>, deb5@midway.uchicago.edu writes:

><_The Cambridge Encyclopedia of Language_, p. 200:
><
><"Logographic writing systems are those where the graphemes represent
><words.  The best-known cases are Chinese, and its derivative script,
><Japanese _kanji_ (pp. 195, 313).
>
>Chinese characters and _kanji_ do not represent words.

No, they represent morphemes.  When "morphemographic" catches on,
let me know.

> I do not care to
>go into this further with someone who gets his linguistic knowledge
>from _The Cambridge Encyclopedia of Language_.

It's the only reference I had handy.  And, despite its occasional 
inaccuracies, it's one more than you've quoted.  As far as I can tell,
you get your linguistic insight directly from Amaterasu herself.

><And if kanji are *not* logographs, what are they? 
>
>Go read _The Chinese Language:  Fact and fantasy_, by John DeFrancis.

I have read it, I just don't have it handy to check which term he
uses.  "Characters" is fine if one is limiting the discussion to
East Asian languages alone, but it's too ambiguous for other contexts.

Once again, if you have a more accurate term than "logograph," please
share.  Yes, "logos" is etymologically "word", but it's foolish to
equate the Ancient Greek word with a modern English linguistics term.
Besides, the knowledge that "kana" means "false name" doesn't impair
your ability to apply it to Japanese syllabaries, does it?

><Have you ever seen "NHK" written out?  Some Japanese brand names ("Sony"
><pops to mind are always written in Roman script; in addition, Roman
><letters can be found interspersed with kanji, hiragana, and katakana
><in all sorts of Japanese writing, especially advertising copy.
>
>A better argument could be made for the claim that English uses the
>Greek alphabet, since said alphabet is widely used in running text of
>various specialised kinds (_e.g._, mathematics literature).

Who's talking about "specialised text"?  NHK is used in every context,
and it's not the only example.  The point is someone who has not
mastered Roman script cannot be said to have mastered modern Japanese; 
that is not the case for an English-user who has not mastered the Greek 
or Hebrew alphabets.

> In
>English-language advertising copy, I can find Chinese, Korean, Arabic,
>and many other scripts used for short phrases in those languages.

With anything near the consistency with which it turns up in Japanese?
More to the point, can you _avoid_ it in Japanese?  I can read a large
variety of printed materials in English and never see a deviation from
the Roman character set.  Can you do this with Japanese?  Even reprints
of ancient literature contain "c" for "copyright."

><So I don't know where I get these crazy ideas.  Maybe from the local
><Yaohan.
>
>Maybe.  But certainly not from a substantial knowledge of Chinese
>or Japanese.

That's why I'm still awaiting your enlightenment, Ama no minakanushi
no Mikoto.
-- 
	 Daniel "Da" von Brighoff    /\          Dilettanten
	(deb5@midway.uchicago.edu)  /__\         erhebt Euch
				   /____\      gegen die Kunst!
