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From: deb5@ellis.uchicago.edu (Daniel von Brighoff)
Subject: Re: International Language.
Message-ID: <1995Jan14.152432.2244@midway.uchicago.edu>
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References: <JEROEN.95Jan9153410@rulil1> <1995Jan9.215743.1541@midway.uchicago.edu> <D27xKM.1F4B@austin.ibm.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jan 1995 15:24:32 GMT
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Xref: glinda.oz.cs.cmu.edu sci.lang.translation:700 sci.lang:34327

In article <D27xKM.1F4B@austin.ibm.com> olivier@glasnost.austin.ibm.com writes:
>
>In article <1995Jan9.215743.1541@midway.uchicago.edu>, deb5@ellis.uchicago.edu (Daniel von Brighoff) writes:
>> 
>> If you know of a European language possessing specifically feminine
>> agent nouns *not* derived from the corresponding masculine forms,
>> please share.  If there are some, I'd like to know more about them.
>
>French.
>
>I think you would have a hard time proving that -euse is semantically
>derived from -eur. They are not even linked etymologically.

First of all, this doesn't jibe with what Mr. Jelenc said about the
origins of agentative suffixes in Romance.  Can you give a more detailed
account of the origins of the "-euse" suffix?

Second, I have seen a synchronic derivation of -euse <- -eur.
Not a very convincing one, mind you, but it exists and I'll see if I
can't locate it.

Third, if I have actually erred by calling nouns in "-euse" derived
from nouns in "-eur," I am in good company, for this is the way the
situation is generally presented in grammars for learning French.
Some talk of replacing the -eur ending with the -euse ending, but
some make the blanket statement that nouns for persons are feminised
by adding -e and then qualify this by mentioning the change of the r 
of -eur to s among the various other "orthographic" irregularities.

Since to talk about sexism in language is to talk primarily about 
people's perceptions, I think the popular explanation should carry
more weight in this discussion than others. 
-- 
	 Daniel "Da" von Brighoff    /\          Dilettanten
	(deb5@midway.uchicago.edu)  /__\         erhebt Euch
				   /____\      gegen die Kunst!
