Newsgroups: comp.lang.lisp
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From: vfr750@netcom.com (Will Hartung)
Subject: Re: Thoughts on Franz Inc., ACL pricing, etc.
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Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 17:55:36 GMT
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(Why do I drag myself into these things...however...)

cyber_surfer@wildcard.demon.co.uk (Cyber Surfer) writes:

>It ain't _my_ attitude. How many times do I have to spell it out? I 
>love Lisp, and I'm doing everything I can to convince people that I 
>should be using it! Please don't blame me if these people fail to be 
>convinced. Not everyone has $3000 to spend on a development tool, 
>unless perhaps it's the latest "gotta have it" fad (e.g. Java).

This paragraph is, I believe, the key between the points of view that
Erik and Martin differ on.

It is not a Lisp issue at all, but a use of tools issue.

Martin is trying to change the "world" so that they will accept his
choice of tools, while Erik has changed himself. From what I
understand, Erik jumps through whatever hoops are necessary so that a
majority of his work is done in the environment that he feels most
comfortable, and is most productive.

Erik doesn't want to make the world safe for Lisp, or anything else.
He wants to make the world safe for Erik (I think we can all relate
with him on this point)! Erik presents himself to his
clients/employers as a black box generator, and on completion of his
projects delivers black boxes that perform to the clients
satisfaction. The tools used to fashion and paint the box are not
relevant to the function of the box, as long as it is within spec.

Martin, it seems, does the same thing. His result is a Windows .DLL
file. A .DLL is about as black as a box can get, designed properly.

But it appears that the primary difference between the two techniques
is that Martin does not feel that he can use enough of the Lisp Tool to
justify the time spent in jumping through hoops to create the
standalone .DLL file. Whereas Erik can leverage his experience of hoop
jumping to make the net time trade off end up ...umm... in the black,
so to speak. 

Granted, Eriks primary task does not seem to be producing
.DLLs, and he would choose not to do such a project in the first
place, however I do not believe that fact invalidates the issue that,
perhaps, Lisp could be leveraged to improve the .DLL creation process.

But, as a corallary, Erik did his early hoop jumping at a price paid
that is now paying off for him, but Martin does not seem to have started
yet. I believe that Eriks position is for Martin to start jumping and
stop shouting. Perhaps Martins position is that he shouldn't have to
see the hoops, much less jump through them.

I can relate to Eriks position. Just about any significant work of
data that comes through my hands spends some portion of its life on a
UNIX system, even if it didn't start or end up there. UNIX is a far
more productive environment for me that any pain in converting and
copying data is a net gain in the long term for what I need to get
done. 

One can compare the two philosophies to two salesmen: One who is out
driving around and knocking on doors, while the other says "Sales are
down, the phone isn't ringing."

And, that's the whole point I think. It is not a tools issues, much
less a Lisp issue. It's a philisophical "approach to life" issue.
Which is one reason why this has got so heated, as no technical issues
are really involved.

So, in summary:

Martin: "I can't use Lisp because it won't make .DLL's."
Erik  : "Yeah. So?"

This is just my take on this whole ..err.. discussion. No intent to
offend anyone.

-- 
Will Hartung - Rancho Santa Margarita. It's a dry heat. vfr750@netcom.com
1990 VFR750 - VFR=Very Red    "Ho, HaHa, Dodge, Parry, Spin, HA! THRUST!"
1993 Explorer - Cage? Hell, it's a prison.                    -D. Duck
