Newsgroups: comp.ai,comp.ai.alife,comp.ai.philosophy
Path: cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!das-news2.harvard.edu!news2.near.net!news.mathworks.com!zombie.ncsc.mil!news.duke.edu!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!swrinde!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!network.ucsd.edu!equalizer!timbuk.cray.com!walter.cray.com!mwd
From: mwd@cray.com (Mark Dalton)
Subject: Re: Thought Question
Message-ID: <1995Mar21.171453.28296@walter.cray.com>
Followup-To: comp.ai.alife,comp.ai.philosophy,comp.ai,alt.consciousness
Lines: 64
Nntp-Posting-Host: alamos.cray.com
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 021193BETA PL3-CRIb]
References: <departedD4HIr4.4Ir@netcom.com> <3ilku4$hip@news.u.washington.edu> <departedD4J4EG.Gvn@netcom.com> <D4sEqG.KLB@gremlin.nrtc.northrop.com> <departedD51M9u.FLM@netcom.com> <3jgpu0$m0i@nntp3.u.washington.edu>
Date: 21 Mar 95 17:14:53 CST
Xref: glinda.oz.cs.cmu.edu comp.ai:28345 comp.ai.alife:2807 comp.ai.philosophy:26156

Gary Forbis (forbis@cac.washington.edu) wrote:
: |> I think that points out that pain, real as it is, is just as contingent
: |> and depending on circumstance as any other psychological phenomenon.  I.e.
: |> it's a made-up thing, but hardly more artificial than anything else we
: |> perceive.  It depends, like everything, on how we perceive it.   What we
: |> make of it, is what it is.
: |> 
: |> Gary would disagree.

: I somewhat disagree.

: I don't know what physical structures are capable of feeling pain so I'm not
: able to identify what certain individuals are missing.  I'm not even sure if
: at this time one can meaningfully separate those who do not feel pain from 
: those who feel pain but fail to recognize it or incorporate it into their
: narrative.

People can build up 'blocks' against pain, I would have to look it up, but
you can probably guess it is fairly similar to the 'beta-blockers' that
are used in hospitals or others like opiates.  There are also people that
have nerve damage, like 'lepers', but that is more  of a physical blockage.
Some pople have constant 'pain' and learn to block it out, and others will
not feel other pain as easily or at least not perceive it since there is
other emotions that are stronger.  (Think of it like you don't feel a pin
prick because your foot just was chopped off, grouse maybe, but similar).

: As far as I can tell, everyone lives at the phenomenological level.  In this
: view pain is not a made up thing but the explanation for its existence is.

Pure speculation on my part:
It is all a matter of relativity and perception, along with instance of
some that may not have the neural chemicals being produced or received in
a area or the brain.

: While I'll accept that different structures can have the same behaviors I'm
: not so sure the same structures can have different behaviors independent of
: internal (physical) state and external context.

Besides what I mentioned above, part of relativity would have to do with
past experience.  A small child that has not experienced much pain would
exprience something more tramatic (skin abbrasion) than say if I or you
had the same scrape, in fact often I don't even notice minor cuts or scrapes.

I have had many much worse cuts and this is not noticable, unless I think
about it, because it is not important or a new experience.  My brain is 
probably signalled, yes, but it does not interupt my hiking, or observing
because it is not important, however, if it was a 'bite' I may notice.

I think it may have to do with some sort of 'subconscious' filter in this
instance, much like you can filter out noise, background voices, but if
someone says your name, you become 'alert' to then next words.

Just some of my perspectives on perception.

Mark
-----------
Mark Dalton       CH3-S-CH2 H                      H      O       H
Cray Research,Inc.      |   |                      |       \      |
Los Alamos,NM 87544     CH2-C-COO    //\ ---C--CH2-C-COO    C-CH2-C-COO
mwd@cray.com                |       |  ||   ||     |       //     |
                            NH3      \\/ \ / CH    NH3    O       NH3
                                          NH
URL = http://lenti.med.umn.edu/~mwd/mwd.html

