Newsgroups: comp.ai.philosophy
Path: cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!rochester!udel!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!kovsky
From: kovsky@netcom.com (Bob Kovsky)
Subject: Re: Significance of consciousness
Message-ID: <kovskyD4xMuC.6Mt@netcom.com>
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
References: <departedD3vKy5.M3B@netcom.com> <D4o8rs.92F@gpu.utcc.utoronto.ca> <kovskyD4q2Aq.EAy@netcom.com> <D4vMrs.2IG@gpu.utcc.utoronto.ca>
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 1995 20:13:24 GMT
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Sender: kovsky@netcom12.netcom.com

In article <D4vMrs.2IG@gpu.utcc.utoronto.ca>,
Andrzej Pindor <pindor@gpu.utcc.utoronto.ca> wrote:
>In article <kovskyD4q2Aq.EAy@netcom.com>, Bob Kovsky <kovsky@netcom.com> wrote:
>>In the previous article,
>>Andrzej Pindor quoted from me and responded:
>>>>
>>>Could you give an example of a "non-material" experience and an example of it
>>>having "consequential effect" on material bodies?
>>
>>	The purpose that motivates me when I write a message on Usenet 
>>has effects on the keys that are pressed.
>>
>Are you suggesting that the "purpose" have no basis in physical processes in
>your brain? Are you implying a some sort of immaterial soul? Not that I'll
>attempt to disprove this, but if so then the discussion is fruitless, since
>science has no tools to tackle such objects.

	Here, of course, we are dealing with one of the mysteries of the 
ages:  the celebrated "mind-body problem."  My position is that this is a 
<real> mystery and not an illusion that can be swept away by a 
proposition such as "the mind is an epiphenomenon."

	The statement that "a purpose is non-material" is different from a
statement that "a purpose has no basis in the physical processes in the
brain."  

	To elucidate:  "an experience is material" when the belief that a
material object corresponds to that experience is necessary to integrate
the experience into the body of my experience.  E.g., I must believe in
the existence of a material keyboard in order to use mine to send messages
to you.  "Materialism" is the doctrine that teaches that an experience
that is not material has no consequential effect.  But, I conclude from
the reality of life that purposes do have consequential effect and that
purposes are not material. 

	It is not possible, in my opinion, to save materialism by
asserting that "the brain" is the material object that corresponds to
every experience.  The system has three parts:  the material world outside
the skull, the material world inside the skull, and immaterial experience. 
"Materialism" defined above, is about the relationship between experience
and the material world outside the skull.  (It is interesting that I have
no experience of my brain and, indeed, cannot have experience of my
brain.)

	The view that immaterial experiences have consequential effects
does not conflict with the view that there are correspondences between
experiences and physical processes in the brain.  There is, however, a
conflict between the view that immaterial experiences have consequential
effects and the view that the material universe (including matter both
inside and outside the skull) is subject to a universal and closed system
of causes and effects.  My resolution of the latter conflict is that
"causes and effects" are not inherent in reality but are products of
experience which we project onto reality and that the system of "causes
and effects" is an approximation that fails to encompass all that is
occurring in the brain. 

	As indicated above, I believe there are <real> mysteries that, 
because of errors and limitations in our processes of experience, we are 
unable to resolve.  There is something "beyond."  My approach does not 
require me to say what it is that is "beyond."  Hence, I do no have to 
assert the existence of a "soul" or a "self."   Moreover, it is possible 
to approach the problems with both:  (1) an acknowledgement of the 
mysteries; and (2) a restriction of terms of discussion to observations 
and structure, i.e. a scientific approach.



<deletia of less interesting discussion>



-- 

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    Bob Kovsky          |  A Natural Science of Freedom 
    kovsky@netcom.com   |  Materials available by anonymous ftp
                        |  At ftp.netcom.com/pub/fr/freedom
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