Newsgroups: alt.atheism,alt.pagan,talk.philosophy.misc,comp.ai.philosophy,alt.consciousness,alt.paranormal.channeling,alt.consciousness.mysticism
Path: cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!das-news2.harvard.edu!news2.near.net!news.mathworks.com!uhog.mit.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!utnut!utgpu!pindor
From: pindor@gpu.utcc.utoronto.ca (Andrzej Pindor)
Subject: Re: Randomness is a human concept (was Re: Time is a human concept)
Message-ID: <D01Kw9.ALM@gpu.utcc.utoronto.ca>
Organization: UTCC Public Access
References: <CzDKJD.FH4@gpu.utcc.utoronto.ca> <3b87dp$g0c@cascade.pnw.net> <CzzwG9.Iny@gpu.utcc.utoronto.ca> <3bdvo9$81f@cutter.clas.ufl.edu>
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 1994 18:33:45 GMT
Lines: 58

In article <3bdvo9$81f@cutter.clas.ufl.edu>,
Jung K Park <keymouse@grove.ufl.edu> wrote:
>: >Also the periodic table of the elements.  An alien species could of
>: >course present the information in a slightly different way (e.g. put
>: >hydrogen on the right and helium on the left, as would probably
>: >be done by humans if the table had been figured out in a Semetic
>: >culture -- or with hydrogen at the top left and helium at the bottom
>: >left if it had been a Chinese culture); but the basic structure is 
>: >compelled by the information to be presented -- and if the information 
>: >presented is *different*, it's *wrong*.
>: >
>: Pure speculation, with no empirical support. In fact it easy to see how
>: wrong it could be. If the aliens based their classification on a number of
>: nucleons in the atomic nucleus (and why not?) then their table of elements
>: would look very different. And lifeforms with a lifespan very different from 
>: ours might see the universe in a more different way yet.
>
>: Andrzej
>
>I think you have missed the point.. if some being (could even be us)
>claasified the elements according to the number and type of nucleons, there
>would be no "periodic table"!  Why do you think it's called the periodic

Exactly, so what is your objection? I have not used the word "periodic table"
for just this reason.

>table... periodic is the important word here.. there are certain things
>which are human in concept and certain things which are simply.. "reality". 
>if we were to classify the elements according to color, that would be purely
>human in conception.  that's not the point of it though.  the purpose of the
>periodic table and any science is to organize and understand the "truth",
>the physical laws which govern everything.  Are you saying that if an alien
>and a human observed the motion of an apple in a gravitational field, the
>alien might see it shooting off from the planet?  What happens happens..

You are lacking imagination. An alien might not "see" things in terms of
apple and the surface of the earth. See my other postings.

>as for the periodic table, the periodicity observed in it is caused by the
>physical laws which govern the behavior of electrons within the atom.  if
>one were to classify the elements according to, let's say the number of
>neutrons, there would be no periodic table because there would BE NO
>correlation between the number of neutrons and periodic trends such as
>chemical reactivity.  And to say that this, our attempt to understand the
>world we live in, could be pure illusion or simple "human" conception is in
>my opinion pointless.

As long as it is a "useful" illusion, why worry and insist that is "has to
be true"? Are you worring about a number of angels on a pin head? What is
pointless is speculating about "truths" which are unaccessible.

Andrzej

-- 
Andrzej Pindor                        The foolish reject what they see and 
University of Toronto                 not what they think; the wise reject
Instructional and Research Computing  what they think and not what they see.
pindor@gpu.utcc.utoronto.ca                           Huang Po
