From newshub.ccs.yorku.ca!torn!utcsri!rpi!usenet.coe.montana.edu!caen!uunet!sun-barr!west.West.Sun.COM!cronkite.Central.Sun.COM!texsun!exucom.exu.ericsson.se!pc254185.exu.ericsson.se!exukjb Wed Sep 23 16:54:38 EDT 1992
Article 6997 of comp.ai.philosophy:
Path: newshub.ccs.yorku.ca!torn!utcsri!rpi!usenet.coe.montana.edu!caen!uunet!sun-barr!west.West.Sun.COM!cronkite.Central.Sun.COM!texsun!exucom.exu.ericsson.se!pc254185.exu.ericsson.se!exukjb
>From: exukjb@exu.ericsson.se (ken bell)
Newsgroups: comp.ai.philosophy
Subject: Re: what is consciousness for?
Message-ID: <exukjb.200.717033883@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: 21 Sep 92 00:04:43 GMT
References: <1992Aug13.025506.2404@news.media.mit.edu> <1992Aug17.171723.5599@spss.com> <iordonez.715366473@academ01> <1992Sep1.183909.4018@spss.com> <iordonez.716751021@academ01> <1992Sep19.222725.26383@daimi.aau.dk>
Sender: news@exu.ericsson.se
Distribution: comp.ai.philosophy
Organization: Ericsson Network Systems, Inc.
Lines: 59
Nntp-Posting-Host: pc254185.exu.ericsson.se
X-Disclaimer: This article was posted by a user at Ericsson Network Systems
              The opinions expressed are strictly those of the user and
              not necessarily those of Ericsson Network Systems.

In article <1992Sep19.222725.26383@daimi.aau.dk> oreinert@daimi.aau.dk (Olavur Heri Reinert) writes:
>From: oreinert@daimi.aau.dk (Olavur Heri Reinert)
>Subject: Re: what is consciousness for?
>Date: 19 Sep 92 22:27:25 GMT

>iordonez@academ01.mty.itesm.mx (Ivan Ordonez-Reinoso) writes:
>>I think we have a notion of beauty, but I couldn't say what it is. I
>>would even dare to say nobody has the least idea of what beauty is,
>>since nobody has ever formalized the concept yet.

>   The concept 'red' is not formalised either, would you claim that
>none of us have "the least idea of" what red is?

>> Or do you have a
>>computer program that can read any input (a symphony, the picture of a
>>flower, a book from Kafka, a theorem, a sunset) and find its degree of
>>beauty? However, we can, at least, recognize what is _not beauty_.

>   I would say what is beautiful or not depends on your cultural
>background and personal taste. I don't think you'll ever find a single
>thing about which all people in the world will agree "it's not
>beautiful".

>>Theism is not the only alternative to materialism. My claim is that it
>>is erroneous to speak about consciousness as if it were just another
>>organ in our bodies, or another function of an organ, like 'vision' or
>>hearing.

>   I agree.

>/Olav

And I think you haven't spent five minutes in a serious study of 
esthetics. There certainly have been formalizations of the nature of
beauty.  You may not agree with them but they'er there; and unless
we had some general idea of what beauty is--something that could be
given an explicit verbal definition--then how do I even know what
you're talking about?  How do I know you're not talking about the Boston
Tea Party instead of beauty?

And also, I'm not really so sure anymore as I once was that, as with 
personal tastes, so with beauty--De gustibus non est disputandum. I think 
there very probably are some general principles--features of all beautiful 
things if you will--that may be potentially at least available to all 
observing minds, and thus have a foundation in something other than 
subjective preference. But I won't press the point.

The difficulty with 'conscious' is that we can approach it either 
phenomonlogically or as Schafer says 'from the first-person standpoint', or
we can approach it from the third-person standpoint, as spectators.  
Consciousness we know from the inside because we are subjects of it. So
it depends on whether you're looking for a first or second-person type
of account.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kenny Bell                          *        Welcome to Mind Wars
Ericsson Network Systems, Inc       *        ANTHEM BBS 386-7907
P.O. Box 833875                     *        Severity with oneself is heroism.
Richardson, TX 75083-3875           *        --A.G.Sertillanges (France, 1943)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------


