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From: mwd@cray.com (Mark Dalton)
Subject: Re: Thought Question
Message-ID: <1995Jan20.024336.19682@walter.cray.com>
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Date: 20 Jan 95 02:43:36 CST
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Greg Stevens (stevens@prodigal.psych.rochester.edu) wrote:
: In <1995Jan17.174819.14582@walter.cray.com> mwd@cray.com (Mark Dalton) writes:

: >	If you look at a flies nerve system it is quite complex, and they
: >have a brain.  But are they self-aware? or do they just function on mechanical
: >decisions, or chemotaxis?

: Self-awareness is one thing, but I will side-step it with applying the same 
: question about flies to consciousness.  If you like, wee can discuss whether
: self-awareness is requisit for consciousness, which I think it is not. 

con.scious.ness \'ka:n-ch*-sn*s\ n 1: awareness esp. of something within 
   oneself; also : the state or fact of being conscious of an external object, 
   state, or fact 2: the state of being characterized by sensation, emotion, 
   volition, and thought : MIND 3: the totality of conscious states of an 
   individual 4: the normal state of conscious life 5: the upper level of 
   mental life as contrasted with unconscious processes

: But with my understanding of consciousness, I don't see any reason to think
: the fly is NOT conscious.  Would you have any behavioral evidence that ti is 
: not?  It knows how to survive, it knows how to react to certain stimuli.

Lets go to rotifer ( a little safer (^8 ).

I would say 'knows', chemotaxis or phototaxis are not 'knowing' any more
than a photosensor 'knowing' that there is light or a chemical 'knowing'
that its catalyst is there so it 'decides' to react.

: It "knows" a lot, certainly in the same sense of Gregory Bateson's statement
: "Sequoias know how to resist forest fires," and acts accordingly.  That is
: all you observe in people to conclude that THEY are conscious.

Yep, in the same sense.  I think we need to start with a common language.
I don't think that version of 'know' or 'knowledge' would fit common
definitions.  Knowledge really speaks of a awareness of the meaning
a understanding of the information and not a mere reaction to it.

A understanding of a hot stove is very different from your reaction to
touching a hot stove.  It does not go to your 'higher' brain, it only
goes to you spinal cord.  But there is no thought involved until after
the reflex (this I would not call conscious, just as any reflex reaction
of chemotaxis, phototaxis, or a chemical reaction).

webster know
   know (pernounciation,etc removed) 1: to 
   1: to perceive directly:have direct cognition of 1a2:to have understanding of
   {importance of ~ing oneself} 1a3: to recognize the nature of : DISCERN 1b1: 
   to recognize as being the same as something previously known 1b2: to be 
   acquainted or familiar with 1b3: to have experience of 2a: to be aware of 
   the truth or factuality of : be convinced or certain of 2b: to have a 
   practical understanding of {~s how to write} archaic  3: to have sexual 
   intercourse with 1: to have knowledge 3: to be or become cognizant - 
   know.able aj


I said to much again.

Mark
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Mark Dalton       CH3-S-CH2 H                      H      O       H
Cray Research,Inc.      |   |                      |       \      |
Los Alamos,NM 87544     CH2-C-COO    //\ ---C--CH2-C-COO    C-CH2-C-COO
mwd@cray.com                |       |  ||   ||     |       //     |
                            NH3      \\/ \ / CH    NH3    O       NH3
                                          NH
URL = http://lenti.med.umn.edu/~mwd/mwd.html

