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From: jeff@aiai.ed.ac.uk (Jeff Dalton)
Subject: Re: Thought Question
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References: <1995Jan12.184559.2530@galileo.cc.rochester.edu> <3f4k1d$8ae@news.u.washington.edu> <1995Jan14.035322.12858@news.media.mit.edu>
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 1995 17:58:53 GMT
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In article <1995Jan14.035322.12858@news.media.mit.edu> minsky@media.mit.edu (Marvin Minsky) writes:
>In article <3f4k1d$8ae@news.u.washington.edu> forbis@cac.washington.edu (Gary Forbis ) writes:
>>In article <1995Jan12.184559.2530@galileo.cc.rochester.edu>, stevens@prodigal.psych.rochester.edu (Greg Stevens) writes:
>
>{Text deleted]
>>
>| While it is an interesting thought experiment, and brings up the point that
>| there is no evolutionary benefit to consciousness (as natural selection acts
>| on behaviors not thoughts), it is assuming that organisms and responsiveness
>| CAN arise without subjective perception.  People say, "Well, I can imagine
>| an organism with no subjectivity but still behaving as I do..." but is
>| it possible?
>
>|  Just because we can imagine it
>| doesn't even mean, I would hold, that it is LOGICALLY possible.
>>
>>I'm not sure I understand your argument.  The question isn't about disembodied
>>minds it's about mindless brains.  Is there something about brains that make
>>minds logically necessary?  If so, is it the structure or the physics?  Upon
>>what evidence does one base one's opinion?
>
>Well, I think Greg is sort of right on this.  Consider what Greg said,
>about the zombie behaving as he does.  Now observe that Greg is talking
>about consciousness just the way that you and I conscious folks do.
>Why on earth, then, would a mindless brain talk about consciousness as
>though it did in fact experience all those feelings, reflections, and
>reflections about reflections, if there were nothing going on inside?
>It would be a inconceivably improbable coincidence!

For evolved creatures, perhaps.  But what if they were deliberately
constructed to say such things.  Would they then have to have the
feelings, etc as well?

-- jeff
