Newsgroups: soc.culture.esperanto,sci.lang
Path: cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!rochester!cornellcs!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.bctel.net!news.mag-net.com!freenet.unbc.edu!news.scn.org!scn.org!lilandbr
From: lilandbr@scn.org (Leland Bryant Ross)
Subject: (lingvaj demandetoj << Re:productive in-laws & colloquial crocodiles) 
Message-ID: <DzuxDA.4LF@scn.org>
Sender: news@scn.org
Reply-To: lilandbr@scn.org (Leland Bryant Ross)
Organization: Seattle Community Network
References: <DzrCKK.M5C@scn.org>  
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 1996 00:29:33 GMT
Lines: 135


partial Esperanto subtitles

Jen artikolo, kiun mi afisxis al novajxgrupo sci.lang, anglalingve, sed 
pri kiu mi invitas ankaux esperantistojn respondi.  Se vi respondas 
anglalingve supozeble utilus sendi la mesagxon ankaux (aux nur) al 
sci.lang; se esperante, nu, dependas de moralaj kaj politikaj demandoj, 
kiujn mi ne rajtas nek provos solvi por vi...

Mi demandis (I.) pri la (mal)fosilieco de la angla sufikso "-in-law", kiu 
pli-malpli respondas al la Esperanta prefikso "bo-"; interesas min ne nur 
la angla kaj esperanta fiksajxoj, sed ankaux similaj (aux ekvivalentaj 
sed *mal*similaj!) formoj en aliaj lingvoj...

> >Two queries: I.  re: productivity of "-in-law"

kaj (II.) pri idiotismaj kaj metaforaj esprimoj en cxiuj lingvoj, en kiuj 
rolas krokodiloj aux la tiulingva ekvivalenta radiko.

>      &      II. re: use of crocodiles in idoms and colloquialisms
>
>I. 
>
>How productive (or how fossilized is the English kinship suffix "-in-law"?
>I frequently refer to my cousins' spouses as my "cousins-in-law", 
>whereupon my (third-party) interlocutors often look at me as askancely as 
>if I had called *them* *"interlocutors"*.  "Cousin-in-law" *feels normal 
>_to me_*, but I get the impression I am in the minority on the matter.  
>So... I thought I'd explore sci.lang's opinions.
>
>I am assuming (tell me if I'm wrong) that "mother-, father- brother-, 
>sister-, daughter-, son- in-law" are standard kinship terms in all 
>native-speaker dialects of English, and cover pretty much the same 
>semantic fields for all speakers.
>
>Do you ever use...  Do you ever hear/see...  Do you object to...
>	Cxu vi iam... uzis?  auxdis/vidis?  malakceptus?    pri:
>cousin-in-law?			<<bokuzo?
>uncle/aunt-in-law?		<<boonklo?
>nephew/niece-in-law?		<<bonevo?
>children-in-law (= son(s)- *and* daughter(s)-in-law)? <<boidoj?
>parents-in-law?	
>grandparents-in-law?		<<boavo?
>grand-in-laws? (or great-in-laws?)?	<bonepo?
>shirttail-cousin-in-law?		<<kio plej indas kiel E-traduko
>shirttail in-laws? (meaning...  ?)	<<por "shirttail" cxi-sence--
>					<<kaj parenteze, cxu iuj neusonanoj
>					<<uzas tiun terminon/sencon angle?
>ex-in-law (meaning "my spouse's ex") /primary stress normally on ex-/
>				<<boeksedzo?
>ex-in-laws (meaning "my ex's parents [and other relatives?]") /primary
>             stress accent normally on -in-/
				<<eksboedzo?
>friend(s)-in-law?				<<"boamikoj"? (Manvxelo uzis
>relatives[ or relations]-in-law?		<<gxin, mi opinias.)
>any other -in-law terms (boss-in-law, penpal-in-law, etc.)
>				<<iuj ajn aliaj???
>Does the term "one's in-laws" mean for you *only* or *usually only* one's 
>spouse's *parents*, or does it include *all* those to whom you are 
>related by marriage?
>
>Do you use or understand "-in-law" terms to refer only to relationship by 
>legal/formal/ritual marriage, or is it also readily usable for 
>relationships via SOSSLQs, SOOSLQs, mere boy/girl-friends, etc.?
>
>Given your opinion of and experience with the foregoing, would you say 
>that "-in-law" is or is not a "productive" suffix in current English?
>
>I wouldn't mind hearing about corresponding or contrasting usages in 
>other languages, too.
>
>II.  
>
>In English, "crocodile tears" are insincere tokens of grief, regret 
>or sadness. 

Jens Larsen kaj iu alia jam diris, ke tio estas parto de la gxenerala
*euxropa* folkloro.  Mi scivolas, cxu nur europa?  Krokodiloj pokas 
tiusubkontinente, cxu ne, kaj fabloj emas fonti el lokoj, kie oni konas 
la rolantajn bestojn...  Cxu araba aux bharata retano povas informi, cxu
tiu (laux Jens ezopa) fablo aux folklorajxo ekzistas (el 
antauximperialisma epoko) en tiulanda kulturo?

> 		In Russian, _Krokodil_ was a satirical magazine in the 
late >Soviet period (is it still published?). 

Rusoj, cxu _Krokodil_ ankoraux aperadas?

> 						   In colloquial Esperanto, 
>"krokodili" is a verb meaning "to speak one's native ethnic tongue in a 
>social context where Esperanto would be more appropriate.  (A bit of 
>Esperanto folk etymology derives this verb from the Japanese "arigato" 
>meaning "Thank you";

Iu bv. rememorigu min pri la fonto de tiu kvazauxetimologio aux lingva 
mito.  Mi opinias, ke gxi estis en iu novelo de Miyamoto Masao aux eble 
iu Umeda, sed mi ne precize memoras.

>			 and some Esperantists have assigned meanings 
>inspired by "krokodili" to other verbalized crocodilians:  aligatori, 
>kajmani, gaviali... 

Tiuj, kiuj uzas tiajn, bv. liveri difinojn!

> 			[cf. my .sig infra, where I guess "krokodiledi" means 
>"to use Nahuatl in English and Esperanto media"] though my impression is 
>none of these has gained wide currency.)  I'm interested in knowing more 
>about the idioms and metaphorical usages in which various languages 
>employ the crocodile.  
>
>Is "crocodile tears" English-only, or is it a translingual usage?
>
>What if any Russian idiomatic sense of "krokodil" gave rise to (or has 
>since arisen from) its use in the magazine title?
>
Rusoj, cxu vi povas klarigi la kromsencojn aux aludvalorojn de "krokodil",
kiuj venis el aux kontribuis al gxia uzo kiel titolo de satira revuo? 

>Do any languages other than Esperanto have verbs derived from their roots 
>for "crocodile", and if so what do they mean?

Cxu iuj lingvoj krom Esperanto havas verbojn derivitajn el siaj radikoj 
por "krokodilo", kaj se jes, kiel ili sencas?
>
>Do any languages other than Esperanto have colloquial (or even formal) 
>verbs meaning "to speak language A where language B would make more sense 
>or be more acceptable" or the like?
>
Cxu iuj aliaj lingvoj havas verbojn, kiuj signifas "paroli lingvon A en 
situacio, kie lingvo B pli konvenus aux akceptatus" aux iel simile?
--
Liland Brajant ROS'    		"Intla yajuanti quinitzquise cohuame o intla
P O Box 30091      		quiise se pajyo, ax quinchihuilis tleno."
Seattle, WA 98103 Usono		
Tel. (206) 633-2434  		(Aj aj aj!  Liland krokodiledas!)
