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From: comm@zeus.bris.ac.uk (M. Murray)
Subject: Re: sexist language
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Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 11:55:00 GMT
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V.Ralf Hagen (rhagen@dingo.saar.de) wrote:
: Hallo!
: In einer Nachricht vom 02.10.96 18:06 befingerte der Autor
: comm@zeus.bris.ac.uk seine Tastatur und eroeffnete uns folgenden Text:

: > Only a German could pretend that usage like "Verkaeufer und Verkaeuferinnen"
: > is good. From a non-sexist viewpoint maybe, but from the aspect of
: > conciseness it is awful. And as someone elsewhere has pointed out,

: I do not understand you.

Good usage should be concise, i.e. as short as reasonably possible.
"Verkaeufer und Verkaeuferinnen" is awfully long-winded and therefore not 
good.

: 
: > "VerkaeuferInnen" can only be considered non-sexist in the written form,
: > where the capital I in the middle of a word breaks all sorts of rules. In

: It is right that VerkaeuferInnen does only exist on paper. I do not see  
: where this breaks any rules. It is a new form, which will in time be  
: accepted (or disappear). But I agree, you have to get used to it.

: 
: > the spoken form "VerkaeuferInnen" is identical with "Verkaeuferinnen", which
: > is an indubitably feminine form, and therefore in no way gender-neutral.

: There is no spoken form of VerkaeuferInnen in German.

Are you really saying that VerkaeuferInnen is an abbreviated written 
form, which must be pronounced "Verkaeufer und Verkaeuferinnen"?

: When you address a Person, you normally know what gender it is. (If not,  
: just guess.)

This seems totally irrelevant. What if I want to talk about
Verkaeufer(Innen) without addressing one? 

:
: Also, a good (=not letting all your teeth pop out) use for VerkaeuferInnen  
: is in the direct address to selling subjects. (Wir rufen alle  
: VerkaeuferInnen des Einzelhandels auf, sich an diesem Streik zu  
: beteiligen.) What it is _not_ good for is for the title of some assembly  
: or, eg, trade union. In this case, you simply use the male form  
: (Gesamtversammlung der Verkaeufer des Saarlandes), which is accepted as  
: the gender-neutral form. (Sexist language only gets sexist when the one  
: you talk to thinks it is sexist. Which normally is not the case in gender- 
: neutral male German. It is also necessary to stress it when you really  
: mean the male people (Die Klage der maennlichen Verkaeufer ueber den  
: Zustand der Toiletten...))

This is precisely what a previous writer (female German) was objecting 
to. She insisted that Verkaeufer meant MALE salesperson, and therefore 
that "die Verkaeufer" meant males salespersons. It was her interpretation 
that lead to my objection to having to say "Verkaeuferinnen und Verkaeufer".

:
: In such an assembly, in spoken form, the perfectly normal, commonly  
: accepted form is Verkaeuferinnen und Verkaeufer (Ich begruesse die  
: anwesenden Verkaeuferinnen und Verkaeufer), which can be written as  
: VerkaeuferInnen. Just consider it as a specialised form of the english  
: Ladies and Gentlemen.

As I said above, this form is far too long-winded to be usable.

: 
: > Ah, I've just noticed that Mark said "you can WRITE good gender-neutral
: > German". How does he suggest we SPEAK it?

: Sorry, I as a German do see no problems there, nor do all women I know.  
: (Except one, which is currently treated. (BSE)) I do not see where your  
: problem is.

My problem was that I didn't appreciate that "VerkaeuferInnen" was 
supposed to be spoken as "Verkaeufer und Verkaeuferinnen". If you think it 
is, then you've got a big problem. Whether the "except one" above refers 
to the female who posted earlier, and what the reference to BSE is meant 
to mean, I have no idea.

: In German, unlike in English, there are real female forms. (Dear  
: Saleswomen... ahem... dear female Salespersons... no, that's not it... oh,  
: forget it!)

OK. BTW, what's wrong with "Verkaufspersonen", "Studentpersonen" usw.?

-- 
Martin Murray :: School of Chemistry, Bristol University, BS8 1TS, England
