Newsgroups: comp.realtime,comp.robotics,comp.lang.forth
Path: cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!das-news2.harvard.edu!news2.near.net!news.mathworks.com!yeshua.marcam.com!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!olivea!news.hal.COM!decwrl!netcomsv!netcom.com!jfox
From: jfox@netcom.com (Jeff Fox)
Subject: Re: Forth's reputation  
Message-ID: <jfoxCy6sA2.DJB@netcom.com>
Sender: jfox@netcom.com (Jeff Fox)
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
References: <38g9b4$bd@ixnews1.ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 1994 16:54:02 GMT
Lines: 88
Xref: glinda.oz.cs.cmu.edu comp.realtime:7335 comp.robotics:14699 comp.lang.forth:18285

In article <38g9b4$bd@ixnews1.ix.netcom.com> rant@ix.netcom.com 
           (Ran Talbott) writes:
>In <jfoxCy4w86.525@netcom.com> jfox@netcom.com (Jeff Fox) writes...
>
>.. yet another textbook example of why so many people consider Forth
>more of a "cult" than a "programming language".  It's not sufficient
>that I stated flatly that Forth is *sometimes* the best tool for the job:
>the heresy of saying that there's a downside to the waycool-ness that
>the Forth True Believers find in their Chosen Language must be
>rooted out.  Any acknowledgement that "freedom" isn't free becomes
>a "one-sided" statement.

Yet another textbook example of why so many people consider Forth
more of a "cult" than a "programming language".  Here is a perfect
example.  Notice that there is no context quoted in "Ran's" post.
If presenting a distorted one sided view doesn't work, people resort to
trying to use a label with a strong negative connotation to change
the subject. 

It would be nice if you put these statements in context.  I was
the one who acknowledged that "freedom" isn't free.  So I am glad
to see that Ran now agrees with me about that.  If you look back  at
the last post you will notice that Ran was complaining about the
downside of freedom while denying that there is an upside to the 
freedom in Forth.  ("freedom" has a positive connotation :-)

Forth has plusses and minuses like averything else.  One of the minuses
is that people will think it is ok to label you a "cultist" for even
mentioning Forth.  (In my opinion this a common human failing, and is
not a result of "minds being warped" by a particular programming
language or any other nonsense like this...)  If people are in an argument
with two sides, people will attempt to use a label or make personal 
attacks to cover up  the fact that their side of the argument
is not the only side.

>To those of you sitting on the sidelines:  please don't shoot the message
>because of the messenger.  Forth has been shown to be an effective tool
>when used in a conscientiously-applied program of oral hygeine and
>regular professional ca... Oops, sorry:   wrong disclaimer.  Despite the
>hype,  there is subtance to the language,  but,  as with any tool,  the
>decision about whether to use it should be based on a knowledge of
>the costs,  and of the alternatives.
>
>Ran

To those of you sitting on the sidelines:  please don't get the wrong
message.  Using the word "cult" or bringing up hygeine is a perfect
example of how Forth got its bad reputation.  But it had nothing to
do with a discussion that was going on about realtime and robtics.

Do people dismiss Microsoft products because Bill Gates is famous for
his lack of personal hygeine?  No, instead people separate these things.
We all know anyone can make jokes about some programmers personal
hygeine habbits.  It should be obvious to readers here that when
someone realizes they are losing an argument that they will accept
the facts, and in the same sentance attempt to discredit the source
with pureley emotional attacks.

Now back to the substance of this thread.

I love Forth, but I admit that "C" IS better than Forth for many
things and for many reasons.  So are other languages, it depends on
a lot of things as we all know.

"C" is very well suited to real time and robotics.  I would argue that
many times it is clearly the best choice, but not always.

( not all programmers would agree with me about this but )

I think it is interesting that many people can  write a good  Forth in
"C", but I have yet to see it go the other way.  I can understand that
a Forth written in "C" gives you some of what is best in both languages.
I usually use Forths written in Forth, but I am not normally working
in an environment where the OS and most application programs and utilities
are written in "C".  In that common environment a Forth in "C" may be
much better than a Forth in Forth, or very likely "C" itself will be
best.  A lot depends on a lot of other things.

I never said "Forth is best for everything..." or anything like that.
I admit to being a "Forth Nut" whatever that is.  Isn't is funny how
you can say things like I have above, and still get publicly labeled
with comments like "Forth True Beleiver" or a "Cultist" and be
subjected to suggestions that "Forth has warped my mind" or that
I have bad personal hygeine.

Ran, about hygeine, give your posts a bath, they smell bad.

Jeff 
