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From: rfenney@directnet.com (Robert J. Fenney)
Subject: Re: Smalltalk and the Internet
Message-ID: <rfenney-201195005126@rfenney.slip.netcom.com>
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References: <48d623$maj@nntp.crl.com> <30AB7553.619E@stn14.me.calpoly.edu> <48gtna$8a6@access5.digex.net>
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 1995 08:56:23 GMT
Lines: 89

In article <48gtna$8a6@access5.digex.net>, bpetros@access5.digex.net (Barry
Petros) wrote:

> 
> Mark S. Johnson <mjohnson@stn14.me.calpoly.edu> wrote:
> >I really hope the Smalltalk vendors take advantage of this opportunity.
> >I could really use a "skinny client" or a "Smalltalk terminal emulator."
> >
> >How hard would it be to have the "fat" model run on the server while
> >communicating with a "skinny" view on the client?
> >
> 
> 
> Yeah, it is amazing how companies like ParcPlace-Digitalk will just
> keep shipping larger and larger and LARGER and LLAARRGGEERR applications.
> I will absolutely guarantee ... absolutely ... that any real software
> company ...  Netscape Communications Corporation would never ... NEVER
> let their software get into such a sorry state of affairs.
> 
> You know someone should call ParcPlace-Digitalk and tell THEM what the
> public wants.  It obviously is not whatever it is they think they are
> doing these days. After all what did Netscape close at today (100 3/4)?
> And what did ParcPlace-Digitalk close at today (7 9/16)?
> 
> Maybe I should take a look at the current situation and see just how FAT!
> ParcPlace-Digitalk software is ...
> 
> -r-xr-xr-x   1 bin      ism      1228800 Jul 28  1994 oe20
> -r-xr-xr-x   1 root     sys      3678208 Jun 27 10:28 netscape
> 
> Oh no! Maybe I am not correct.  Of course at ParcPlace-Digitalk they
> have that nasty habit of loading these HUGE images into memory while
> they are running.  So maybe instead of looking at disk space let us
> take a look at memory usage.
> 
>   F S   UID   PID  PPID  C PRI NI   SZ    WCHAN TTY      TIME COMD
>  21 S 30030  3271  3175  0 154 20 1124   201f20 ttyp7    0:01 netscape
>  21 S 30030  3220  3175  0 154 20 1278   201f20 ttyp7    3:29 oe20
> 
> Huh, I do not think I like the way that is going ... Netscape seems to
> be about the same as VisualWorks.  Well I know ... the new and
> improved version of Netscape ... you know the one with all that Java
> stuff in it will be a REALLY LEAN MEAN FIGHTING MACHINE ... I mean
> after all their stock is at 100 and even all the techies here on the
> 'the net' LOVE Netscape.  Just a second; I will get you a new and
> improved measurement.
> 
> Okay ... here it is ... can you feel the excitement build!!!!!!
> 
>   F S   UID   PID  PPID  C PRI NI   SZ    WCHAN TTY      TIME COMD
>  21 S 30030  3259  3175  0 154 20 2031   201f20 ttyp7    0:01 netscape
>  21 S 30030  3220  3175  0 154 20 1278   201f20 ttyp7    3:29 oe20
> 
> Uh oh! I have not even started an applet yet and it is already larger
> than VisualWorks. What do you think will happen when I hit one of
> these fat new JAVA! server sites.  I mean I was running a browser in
> VisualWorks and we have to be fair ..... (Don't we!)
> 
>   F S   UID   PID  PPID  C PRI NI   SZ    WCHAN TTY      TIME COMD
>  21 R 30030  3259  3175 44 189 20 3166          ttyp7    0:11 netscape
>  21 S 30030  3220  3175  0 154 20 1278   201f20 ttyp7    3:29 oe20
> 
> Oh no ... quick ... sell Sell SELL your Netscape stock.
> 
> Of course, in all fairness to Netscape ... they do have a 3M default
> cache and ParcPlace-Digitalk has a 1M overhead space and a 1M code
> cache plus about 0.5M miscellaneous 'object' workspaces (creation,
> stack ....)  (and what about included functionality ... after PPD did
> rotate the world faster in *my* simulation).
> 
> YOU MAKE THE CALL!
> 
> ;-)
> Barry

Barry,

When you say companies like Netscape would never let their software grow
the way most Smalltalks have I have to say OH Ya, have you looked at the
size of most commercial software today. As Netscapes functions grow so will
it's product. What the Smalltalk venders need to do is to implement a
COMMON library format that is standard across Smalltalk implementations.
Then they need to start disecting their Smalltalk environments into
loadable modules that a developer can load when it is needed. This would
give us an environment like Java and would allowe us to tune our work
environments as we see fit. The one size fits all idea is not a very good
one.

Robert
