Newsgroups: comp.lang.lisp
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From: cracauer@wavehh.hanse.de (Martin Cracauer)
Subject: Re: Do something. Now.
Message-ID: <1996Dec24.135215.9886@wavehh.hanse.de>
Reply-To: cracauer@wavehh.hanse.de
Organization: Private site
References: <3059948144828413@naggum.no> <851066309snz@wildcard.demon.co.uk> <GJR.96Dec20105752@hplgr2.hpl.hp.com> <851174617snz@wildcard.demon.co.uk> <joswig-ya023180002112962143090001@news.lavielle.com> <851272035snz@wildcard.demon.co.uk> <1996Dec23.121729.24061@wavehh.hanse.de> <851371142snz@wildcard.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 96 13:52:15 GMT
Lines: 141

cyber_surfer@wildcard.demon.co.uk (Cyber Surfer) writes:

>In article <1996Dec23.121729.24061@wavehh.hanse.de>
>           cracauer@wavehh.hanse.de "Martin Cracauer" writes:

>> Look at all those Java tools. I happen to like the language, but
>> almost all libraries I can get source for are pure junk (I like having
>> source, I need to learn from it). Not to speak of JVMs exploding under
>> the slightest data load.

>YMMV. Most of the uses of Java that I see are trivial, but this
>is expected to change, once the quality of JVMs improve. For example,
>how many JVMs use a generational GC? Yet JVMs that generational GCs
>are on their way.

I'm not sure the quality of Java code will improve automatically when
better JVMs are availiable.

When comparing C and C++ class libraries, I often find C++ libraries
too much oriented towards nice effects attracting potential users and
not satisfying my need for a tool collection that allows greatest
flexibility in use.

I think the quality of availiable tools for a given language depends
on the people using that language. For a mainstream language on a
mainstream platform, it is almost impossible to place tools of my
preffered sort.

While I neither like Windows nor C++, I think there are actually quite
a number of Win/C++ tools that are well-designed, but only in areas
that are not that mainstream (advanced user interaction, advanced
databases). 

I'm not in the business of advanced enduser GUI's or modeling advanced
databases. 

For my needs, the community that drives some Lisp implementations and
tools provides tools that fit my taste. As do some C (not C++) based
projects like FreeBSD and NetBSD. While many in this group don't like
C, I think it is pretty obvious that these people actually try to do
things right and don't ruin their tools when going after the
mainstream.


>> Dylan's greatest drawback will of course be the lack of such resources
>> for my needs and without a free environment I can't expect free source
>> to show up.

>I recall Harlequin refering to a demo of DylanWorks using OLE.
>If the strength of support for other Windows APIs is as strong,
>then I'd expect a lot of people to be interested - or at least
>very curious. I guess it'll depend on whether you see Dylan as
>an alternative to Lisp (Common Lisp, Scheme, whatever) or C++.

We are talking about different kinds of libraries here. You talk about
interfacing to other modules in other languages, helping you to use
what your platform. I'm talking about modules within my language,
helping me to use whatever program structure I think of but can't
handle by myself in my head.

The point of cl-http, for example, is not that it is a high-level
interface to TCP sockets. cl-http is first of all a tool to provide
contents. 

>> Lack of threads in free CLs (except ECOLisp) is what I miss
>> most. Problem at hand: The problem is too tough for me to solve. 

>Same here. How many free CLs with native code compilers are there?
>To avoid licencing problems, I'd prefer a commercial compiler.

While free compilers have their shortcomings, I think licencing is not
one of them. CMUCL is the only free native CL Compiler, while Gcl and
ECOLisp are not conceptually slower than a native compiler. The point
about CMUCL is not that it's native.

>If you already know of CL-HTTP, know CL, and it's your choice
>alone to make, then it's easy. For my employer, the first choice
>of Apache, running under Linux. Unfortunately, a Windows based
>web server arrived and was running after a simple install, while
>Apache may or may not have been running. I never found out.
>The choice was not made due to ignorance, but due to a lack
>of time. One server took longer to get running than the other
>(which took _no time at all_).

Apache competes with those Windows based solutions in the area of
serving contents from other sources. cl-http focuses on providing
contents. I think Apache will have its niche for performance-oriented
Web sites sooner or later, the mainstream will be Windows boxes.

I'm pretty sure your Apache problems are in fact Linux problems,
BTW. Try FreeBSD.

>I can't comment on the numbers of servers using Apache, as most

About 60-65%. There's a website that tries all servers on the internet
it knows about and asks. Forgot the Url.

[...]
>> What people want who wants to do killer Web applications:
>> - Cleanest way to handle user input from server-side
>>   application. Parts of cl-http take care of this.

>Form handling is very basic stuff. If that's not enough, then
>there are tools that can make it obscenely easy. You'd need a
>well above average app to make _Perl_ necessary, never mind Lisp.

HTML Forms and its extension Javascript are often seen as something
that needs to be replaced by Java as soon as possible. Using normal
CGIs, it is very difficult to build a real stateful application (I
know, I spent 1996 to do so).

Read about w3p (part of cl-http). You'll know that form handling can
be a matter of languages. You think you need a though problem to need
the expressive power (nice term :-) of Lisp. I'd say you also use the
expressive power of Lisp to let it handle the complexity involved when
using HTML forms, even when your application areas are of "normal"
complexity. Some CLIM-based efforts go other ways in the same
direction.

My customers aren't very existed when I tell I will have to base
advanced GUIs inside Web browsers on Java. Many people have browsers
without Java, many aren't permitted to use Java on their working place
machines etc etc etc. It is a competive advantage to be able to handle
HTML forms as good as possible.

>> - Cleanest way of presenting outout to the user without overloading
>>   network. Parts of cl-http take care of this, as well as CLIM-related
>>   projects.

>Are you talking about a user over the web, or a local user,
>configuring the web server? The CLIM reference leads me to
>suspect that it's the latter.

No, the user.

Martin
-- 
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Martin_Cracauer@wavehh.hanse.de http://cracauer.cons.org  Fax.: +4940 5228536
"As far as I'm concerned,  if something is so complicated that you can't ex-
 plain it in 10 seconds, then it's probably not worth knowing anyway"- Calvin
