Newsgroups: comp.lang.lisp,comp.lang.dylan
Path: cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!das-news2.harvard.edu!news4.ner.bbnplanet.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde.nde.swri.edu!nntp.primenet.com!netcom.com!vfr750
From: vfr750@netcom.com (Will Hartung)
Subject: Re: Common LISP: The Next Generation
Message-ID: <vfr750Dxu9Gt.4ur@netcom.com>
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
References: <joswig-1409961203090001@news.lavielle.com> <842724458snz@wildcard.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 18:46:05 GMT
Lines: 69
Sender: vfr750@netcom13.netcom.com
Xref: glinda.oz.cs.cmu.edu comp.lang.lisp:22769 comp.lang.dylan:7252

cyber_surfer@wildcard.demon.co.uk (Cyber Surfer) writes:

>In article <joswig-1409961203090001@news.lavielle.com>
>           joswig@lavielle.com "Rainer Joswig" writes:

>> > We have been specific in saying over and over. Those of us who have to
>> program 
>> > for the PC  _need_ a truely windows aware Lisp: we need OCX capability, true 
>> > OLE compatability, dynamic linking to the system's DLLs, and for a price 
>> > somewhere low side of $500.
>> 
>> Sounds interesting. If I'd use a PC I'd certainly would like
>> to have it. Would there be a market for it? How big?
>> What do you think? 

>We may never know, unless somebody tries it. Has it been done yet?
>If Lisp does indeed make programmers more productive, then it would
>appear that a market _does_ exist.

>If I appear to be negative about Lisp, it's only because I see so
>many examples of negative thinking keeping Lisp where it is today,
>in an ivory tower, used by elitists. Remember the Smalltalk balloon
>on the cover of the August 1981 issue of Byte? I do. What we don't
>see in that picture is the tether keeping the ballon from escaping
>from the ivory tower.

Oh boy, do I ever remember that balloon. A friend of mine wants to
trade his copy of that issue along with the Blue, Orange and Green book
to somebody for an old arcade game. I'm trying to convince him
otherwise.

As far as the Ivory Tower, I agree. I'd like to see a book "Lisp for
Idiots", "Lisp in 21 Days", "Conquer The World With Lisp", etc. with
the Allegro CL Lite, Allegro PDF file, and all of the source pressed
on to a CD glued in the back of the book. I'd like the book to focus
on what Lisp has in COMMON with other languages in order to bait folks
into a the couple of "Advanced Topics" chapters in the back. 

Stick some ODBC drivers on it that can create "Access" databases, and
folks will be balancing their checkbooks...in Lisp. Writing checkers
games...in Lisp. Doing all of those things that folks think they want
done, but can't seem to find the right software and they're willing to
learn and program themselves...in Lisp. Kind of a Grass Roots thing.

Folks that read these books don't want "Computer Science", they want
"Paint By Numbers". If the readers don't finish the book, then they'll
believe that Lisp is "Just like the others", so why be afraid of it? If
they stick to the end of the books, then they'll discover that not only
is Lisp "Just like the others, but it is something more as well.  A
wolf in cheap clothing." with the ISBNs of Grahams books as a
followup.

Lisp has IF statements, so does VB. Lisp has FOR loops, so does VB.
Lisp has a dialog builder (Allegro does), do does VB. Lisp can have
structures, so does VB. Functions? Subroutines? Lisp and VB are pretty
close.

What does VB have that Lisp doesn't have? Volume! Allegro has a FFI,
and third parties can ADD widgets if they want, but without the market
volume, there is no incentive. There are a zillion VBXs out there. 

A book might attract folks to Lisp, which will attract volume to Franz,
which may let them lower their price, which will attract more volume,
which may attract 3rd parties, yada yada yada.

-- 
Will Hartung - Rancho Santa Margarita. It's a dry heat. vfr750@netcom.com
1990 VFR750 - VFR=Very Red    "Ho, HaHa, Dodge, Parry, Spin, HA! THRUST!"
1993 Explorer - Cage? Hell, it's a prison.                    -D. Duck
