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From: mwd@cray.com (Mark Dalton)
Subject: Re: Thought Question
Message-ID: <1995Jan20.030155.19946@walter.cray.com>
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References: <3f5nuu$mks@ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <1995Jan14.153326.20818@gdunix.gd.chalmers.se> <D2K93p.706@cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <vlsi_libD2KKMr.M4G@netcom.com> <790509481snz@ianj.demon.co.uk>
Date: 20 Jan 95 03:01:55 CST
Xref: glinda.oz.cs.cmu.edu comp.ai:26656 comp.ai.alife:1878 comp.ai.philosophy:24826

Ian Johnson (Ian@ianj.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: On what basis do we assume that plants are not conscious? Agreed their
: consciousness would be somewhat alien to our own, but I would be 
: uncomfortable to dismiss them out of hand.

Sure, I think in more degrees of 'consciousness', I would not through
it out or assume it.  Just ponder/wonder.  (^8  I think of counsciousness
as more than a pattern of action, to me there is a sense of self-awareness
and understanding of the meaning/reason for actions.

: There's two things I want to drop into this discussion. The first is the
: view of the universe that says that the universe 'exists' becuase there
: is consciousness to observe it. If you look at Quantum Mechanics there is 
: this strange world where two opposing ideas can both be true, until 
: somebody (a counsciousness) looks at the experiment to see which outcome
: is true. At this point the possibilities collapse to a single 'truth'(if
: there are any serious physics people out there that can expand on this 
: thought please do; I'm just an enthusiastic amateur). Take a look at the
: Schrodingers Cat thought experiment.

Amature speaking (^8:
	There is no system that can be observed without the observer
being part of the system, i.e. affecting:
	1. How the systems runs, and affecting the outcome.
	2. Interpretation of results is based on previous experience,
	   ideas and perceptions.

Personally, I don't see it as realistic to claim 'truth' on observation,
but rather that it 'points' (or moves us closer) to the 'truth'.
If true and false (either or) are the only options then yes there must often
be 'apparently opposing' 'truths'.  (Is grey black or white? is a VERY
simple perspective it has properties of both).

: The second is that perhaps consciousness is a by product of a complex 
: system. We have seen complex computer systems able to achieve demonstrate 
: behaviour that has not been programmed directly into it. Perhaps when
: the complexity of such a system goes beyond some point it starts to
: manifest self determinism etc. as a bug in a program?

I think levels of consciousness will be shown to be _basically_ proportionate
to the level of complexity to the system.  (No I must also state that
I think the scale of the system is often missed.  i.e. are you just the
sum of your parts?  Okay, if so, then if you where in a isolated 'space'
of nothingness from the beginning, how does that differ?  The system is
really all that there is (????).  No I am not claiming a universal mind
or anything  (^8.  But each part of the system does affect the other
and does affect the 'awareness' of oneself.
	I often become more 'aware' of me, my reasoning, thoughts, etc.
by talking and interacting with others.  So a indirect, but never the less,
real change in my self-awareness (and general awareness) is affected by
the complexity I take in.  (I am not sure how that was, but I am sure
some one will let me know (^8  ).


Mark
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Mark Dalton       CH3-S-CH2 H                      H      O       H
Cray Research,Inc.      |   |                      |       \      |
Los Alamos,NM 87544     CH2-C-COO    //\ ---C--CH2-C-COO    C-CH2-C-COO
mwd@cray.com                |       |  ||   ||     |       //     |
                            NH3      \\/ \ / CH    NH3    O       NH3
                                          NH
URL = http://lenti.med.umn.edu/~mwd/mwd.html

