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From: mwd@cray.com (Mark Dalton)
Subject: Re: Thought Question
Message-ID: <1995Jan20.022902.19480@walter.cray.com>
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Date: 20 Jan 95 02:29:02 CST
Xref: glinda.oz.cs.cmu.edu comp.ai:26653 comp.ai.alife:1876 comp.ai.philosophy:24824

Greg Stevens (stevens@prodigal.psych.rochester.edu) wrote:

Greg, Please define what you entail in:
	'encoded in the brain'

(more below)

Thanks!

Mark

: In <1995Jan17.165214.13861@walter.cray.com> mwd@cray.com (Mark Dalton) writes:
: >Greg Stevens (stevens@prodigal.psych.rochester.edu) wrote:

: Saying that the process of mapping of brain activity onto subjective emotion
: is NOT saying that that emotion is not manifested by neural processes.  It
: could be very very very complex, and still be "encoded in the neural network
: of the brain."

That was not the point.  The point is you also cannot say that it is all
encoded in the brain.  After all, it is only partially comes from within.


: >Not as far as is known.  Can you force someone to Love someone, ie. not
: >just the physical stimulation and not lust.  It is a sense of a person
: >being 'in sync', perhaps one day it _may_ be posible.  (But then is that
: >love??)

: Just because you can't force someone to feel something doesn't mean it is not
: encoded in the brain.  I can't force you to believe that it is 4 a.m. right
: not, that doesn't mean that the knowledge we have of what time it is is not
: coded in the brain.  Why do you think the "sense" of a person being in sync
: can not be coded in the brain?

That is what I said; "Not as far as is known"
Again it is not all from within the individual.  It is not scientific to
conclude either way, yet.

: Note, "love" has nothing to do with actually beig in sync, just the feeling,
: and as a subjective feeling, it seems it would be reflected in some pattern
: structurally in the person, unless you are a spiritual dualist.

Not necessarily. I would say the sum is more than the parts though!
(i.e. it makes a diffence how the parts are associated, and how the
 parts perceive the external world.  But also the external world affects
 the parts and the perceptions.  In other words, there are patterns
 outside of you that affect how you see, develop and change.  It is not
 entirely a internal world).  For me there must be balance if one
 tries to force any system to one side or the other it will balance
 itself over time, sometimes having harsh affects).

There is a sense of multiple feelings within any one feeling.
I grant that there will be various structural patterns that will influence
they way one feels.  i.e. loving caring childhood vs. a rough, distant
abusive childhood.  These will cause both structural changes in the brain,
but also will have a social affect (in a rut, catch-22, The TENDENCY may be:
they are angry because they cannot be close, they cannot be close because they
are angry, they would need to break the cycle).  I would say this tendency
is partially the structural patterns.  (It is just my perspective, so far
there is really no proof either way, it will probably be awhile too).
It is more of a gut feeling, because of how systems behave, interact and
seek balance.

: >: > The feeling of well being,
: >: >anger, humor, the joy in learning, and so much more is beyond the
: >: >states of bits encoded in the brain. 

: >: Once again, do you have proof for this assertion?  References?  There is
: >: a lot of research going into emotions and their underlying neurochemistry
: >: and neurophysioanatomy, you know.  Should we tell them all to give it up?

: >Again, I think he is right.  It is not a matter of turn this switch and
: >it is okay.  We are talking about a VERY complex system, there are multiple
: >factors (100's of posibilities) for just one response, each response has
: >a variety of levels (fuzzy logic, it is not 0 or 1, it is somewhere in 
: >between) is the type of concept.

: Just because something is complex does not mean it is not encodable in the
: brain.  So far twice I have asked you (or anyone) to give evidence of the
: assertion that these things (love, etc) are not coded or codable in the
: brain, and the response I have gotten was "it's complicated."  This is
: not good reasoning.

And I have asked the same evidence of you.  I guess you need to specify
how much evidence you need and what evidence or facts are acceptable.
Or perhaps what you mean by 'encoded in the brain'.  Just because it
has receptors does or does not have receptors does not make it encoded.
The amount of a hormone will also affect the emotion.
Also I have said, these are my perspectives.  I did not JUST say it
was complicated, I have stated that there are things outside of the body
that affect ones emotion, there are others IN the body and NOT in the
brain that affect emotions (estrogen,testosterone).  I grant the brain
is affected by them, but other stimuli OUTSIDE of the brain can and will
affect thier production.  And there is MUCH evidence of that.

I felt I needed to emphasis, so that it would be noticed this time.

	I am not sure what evidence you need.

Right again!  But it does not mean that it is either.  Objectivity is
an important part of science, and it is good to have a hypothesis, but
that is what it is.  

Oh well.

Mark
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Mark Dalton       CH3-S-CH2 H                      H      O       H
Cray Research,Inc.      |   |                      |       \      |
Los Alamos,NM 87544     CH2-C-COO    //\ ---C--CH2-C-COO    C-CH2-C-COO
mwd@cray.com                |       |  ||   ||     |       //     |
                            NH3      \\/ \ / CH    NH3    O       NH3
                                          NH
URL = http://lenti.med.umn.edu/~mwd/mwd.html

