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From: minsky@media.mit.edu (Marvin Minsky)
Subject: Re: Thought Question
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References: <3f23q4$oc4@ixnews1.ix.netcom.com> <1995Jan12.184559.2530@galileo.cc.rochester.edu> <3f4k1d$8ae@news.u.washington.edu>
Date: Sat, 14 Jan 1995 03:53:22 GMT
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In article <3f4k1d$8ae@news.u.washington.edu> forbis@cac.washington.edu (Gary Forbis ) writes:
>In article <1995Jan12.184559.2530@galileo.cc.rochester.edu>, stevens@prodigal.psych.rochester.edu (Greg Stevens) writes:

{Text deleted]
>
| While it is an interesting thought experiment, and brings up the point that
| there is no evolutionary benefit to consciousness (as natural selection acts
| on behaviors not thoughts), it is assuming that organisms and responsiveness
| CAN arise without subjective perception.  People say, "Well, I can imagine
| an organism with no subjectivity but still behaving as I do..." but is
| it possible?

|  Just because we can imagine it
| doesn't even mean, I would hold, that it is LOGICALLY possible.
>
>I'm not sure I understand your argument.  The question isn't about disembodied
>minds it's about mindless brains.  Is there something about brains that make
>minds logically necessary?  If so, is it the structure or the physics?  Upon
>what evidence does one base one's opinion?

Well, I think Greg is sort of right on this.  Consider what Greg said,
about the zombie behaving as he does.  Now observe that Greg is talking
about consciousness just the way that you and I conscious folks do.
Why on earth, then, would a mindless brain talk about consciousness as
though it did in fact experience all those feelings, reflections, and
reflections about reflections, if there were nothing going on inside?
It would be a inconceivably improbable coincidence!

Yes, as I concluded somewhere in "The Society of Mind," there is
indeed something about brains that make minds logically necessary.  It
is because "Minds are simply what Brains do."  It's neither the
structure nor the physics; it's the information-processing procedures.

I suppose you could ask, what's the proof of this.  It's just a
