From newshub.ccs.yorku.ca!ists!helios.physics.utoronto.ca!news-server.ecf!utgpu!csd.unb.ca!morgan.ucs.mun.ca!nstn.ns.ca!bonnie.concordia.ca!ccu.umanitoba.ca!zirdum Tue Mar 24 09:54:33 EST 1992
Article 4368 of comp.ai.philosophy:
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>From: zirdum@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Antun Zirdum)
Newsgroups: comp.ai.philosophy
Subject: Re: Monkey Room
Message-ID: <1992Mar10.014527.16007@ccu.umanitoba.ca>
Date: 10 Mar 92 01:45:27 GMT
References: <1992Mar6.213755.17977@psych.toronto.edu> <1992Mar7.180909.10713@ccu.umanitoba.ca> <1992Mar9.175416.8708@psych.toronto.edu>
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
Lines: 65

>>I do believe that if the system produces intelligent behavior
>>it IS intelligent!
>
>If you genuinely believe that you can describe the outputs of a randomly
>behaving system as "intelligent," then we simply have no grounds for
>discussion.
>
What do you mean by random?
Do you believe that the atoms in your brain are random?
Do you believe that anything is random?

The key ($64K) question is does it pass the turing test?
Now I am not a mathematician, but if a system solves
a problem, is that system not equivalent to another
system that goes about its solution in a different
way??
>>>
>>>> What is there that precludes that
>>>>a bunch atoms will not come together (randomly) and
>>>>form a complete human being, intact with memories and
>>>>everything! Let us assume that he was your copy in
>>>>every detail, now is he intelligent?
>>>
>>>Sure.
>>>
>But the system is *driven* by randomness, its behaviour is
>*determined* purely by chance.  The rest of the "system" is
>irrelevant to this point.
What do you mean the system is driven by chance?
Are not the sound that you produce (the question)
a part of the system, does that not affect the die, also
in a pure deterministic system there cannot exist randomness
(uncomputablity, yes - randomness *NO*) Randomness is merely
a notational convenience for people when talking about
uncomputability. So the die is driven to produce those
answers by the system it is in, everything you do affects
the die. (think of the die as a encoded look-up table
(encoded in the real world))
>
>
>You are confusing at what level the randomness occurs.
>
>>I do not see the differences that people like you purport
>>there are between physical systems we call humans, and
>>physical systems we call machines!
>
>The crucial differences under discussion are between humans
>and computationally equivalent programs.  If you do not see
>the distinction between these things, then you have not been
>following the discussion...
>
Can something be computationally equivalent, without also
incorporating the system it is computing.

In any case, I do not see what is there in humans that cannot
be computed!
>
>- michael


-- 
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*   AZ    -- zirdum@ccu.umanitoba.ca                            *
*     " The first hundred years are the hardest! " - W. Mizner  *
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