From newshub.ccs.yorku.ca!ists!helios.physics.utoronto.ca!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rpi!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!linac!mp.cs.niu.edu!rickert Thu Jan  9 10:34:16 EST 1992
Article 2572 of comp.ai.philosophy:
Path: newshub.ccs.yorku.ca!ists!helios.physics.utoronto.ca!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rpi!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!linac!mp.cs.niu.edu!rickert
>From: rickert@mp.cs.niu.edu (Neil Rickert)
Newsgroups: comp.ai.philosophy
Subject: Re: Ignore Searle and be happier
Message-ID: <1992Jan8.213952.14223@mp.cs.niu.edu>
Date: 8 Jan 92 21:39:52 GMT
References: <1992Jan7.203119.6231@neptune.inf.ethz.ch> <1992Jan8.165208.26637@mp.cs.niu.edu> <1992Jan8.200537.18919@neptune.inf.ethz.ch>
Organization: Northern Illinois University
Lines: 69

In article <1992Jan8.200537.18919@neptune.inf.ethz.ch> santas@inf.ethz.ch (Filippos Santas) writes:
>
>
>In article <1992Jan8.165208.26637@mp.cs.niu.edu> rickert@mp.cs.niu.edu (Neil Rickert) writes:
>>In article <1992Jan7.203119.6231@neptune.inf.ethz.ch> santas@inf.ethz.ch (Filippos Santas) writes:
>>>
>>>It receives some stimuli (temperature, light intensity etc) and it reacts
>>>according to its current state. Note that this state is not
>>>memory (or knowledge) as the man in our example has no memory (or knowledge) of
>>>where he is.
>>
>>  State is memory.  If you don't believe so, try resetting the state of
>>your computer back to where it was when you originally unpacked it.  This
>>will require reformatting all the disks.
>>
>
>You used the example of a device which is constructed among others for data
>storage. Not every system needs to keep as memory its previous states. But even so,

 I believe I was using "state" in the way you were using it.

 State is always memory.  But you can distinguish between cases:

	state in a finite state automaton, where state is only temporary
	working memory, since the state is always reset to its initial
	condition.

 and

	state in a computer, where you do not reformat the disks every time
	you boot, but allow memory to accumulate for a long time.

 For the sake of argument, let's only call the second one "memory".

 Now back to your argument:

	You blind-folded your man, so that he could not make use of his
	memory.  This is somewhat like resetting to the initial state.
	Let's for the moment agree that his actions depend only on current
	stimuli and temporary state.

	How do you do this for the tree.  Do you remove all the buds, lop off
	the roots, remove all of the outer layer (cambium - just below the
	bark) to make its memory unavailable?  Such actions are known to
	have devastating effects on growth.

>The voltage in the output does not depend on previous states => system
>without memory. If you add an inductance then you have a system where the 

 But try putting a dry battery cell into the circuit.  Discharging the battery
has a substantial effect on future voltages.

>one state derives from a previous one but it still does not have consiousness 

 Hey.  Don't put words into my mouth.  I was not claiming consciousness.  On
the contrary, my point was that the the tree does not have consciousness,
yet still has memory which is rather more substantial than just temporary
state, and which it uses to significant ecological advantage.

>The system by itself cannot say a word about its previous states from 
>its current state.

 So what.  Lots of processes are not exactly reversible.

-- 
=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=
  Neil W. Rickert, Computer Science               <rickert@cs.niu.edu>
  Northern Illinois Univ.
  DeKalb, IL 60115                                   +1-815-753-6940


