From newshub.ccs.yorku.ca!ists!helios.physics.utoronto.ca!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!bonnie.concordia.ca!ccu.umanitoba.ca!zirdum Mon Mar  9 18:33:11 EST 1992
Article 4073 of comp.ai.philosophy:
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>From: zirdum@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Antun Zirdum)
Newsgroups: comp.ai.philosophy
Subject: Re: Definition of understanding
Keywords: Searle Chinese Dead Horses
Message-ID: <1992Feb27.180811.4244@ccu.umanitoba.ca>
Date: 27 Feb 92 18:08:11 GMT
References: <1992Feb22.234830.17713@psych.toronto.edu> <1992Feb23.071810.16573@ccu.umanitoba.ca> <34375@uflorida.cis.ufl.EDU>
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
Lines: 73

PLEASE READ BELOW CAREFULLY, I DO BELIEVE I HAVE FOUND THE
REASON FOR OUR DISAGREEMENT.

>>It seems to me that the man cannot respond in any way but to say "Yes I
>>understand Chinese!" He has all the requirements, He can do anything that a
>>native Chinese speaker can. There is no need for him to assume that native
>>Chinese speakers do it in a different way. In short, I have serious doubts
>>that someone can memorize rules for interacting with Chinese speakers and
>>still not understand.
>
>A few points: 
>
>1) Would the man even _know_ that the rules involved were for the Chinese
>language? (unless, of course, someone informed him of this fact, in his native
>language.) If the symbols are "meaningless squiggles" to him, he might not be
>able to differentiate them from Korean (which is similar) or any other sets of
>squiggles.  He could say, "I don't know if I know CHINESE, but I do know a lot
>of neato squiggles".

Does a young child know what language they are speaking. I can give you
an example, I was raised with two languages commonly spoken (and 
interchangably) I was never really aware when I was speaking one
over the other (it really made no difference, they seemed to me
to be the same langage (when at home))
I also presume that the chinese speaker in the man would be
able to answer questions about his current circumstances, which
I take it to mean that it is somehow connected to his senses.
So when he sees a dog, the chinese symbols for dog come up
(semantics?), also when he is asked in chinese "what is that"
he would manipulate symbols - and eventually would learn
that the chinese dog symbol meant 'dog' (or do you think that
his english speaking side is automatically suspended when his
chinese side is working?)

What we are really talking of here is a intelligence transplant!
We are taking a complete intelligence, placing it in a man
and then you expect him to associate it with his english
side that he *IS*. Eventually the two sides would integrate!

But suppose that we take the man, when he is just 1 year old.
We start giving him chinese symbols. Now understand that
this particular man was born to English speaking parents
but due to unfortunate circumstances his parents die, and
he is adopted by a Chinese couple, they take him to China.
He is given Chinese symbols to learn (note: nowhere are we
talking of them giving him semantics! They are giving him
syntax!)
	Now, when our man grows up he IS a Chinese speaker,
the question is DOES he understand Chinese? You say "of
course!", but where do the Chinese symbols that he 'understands'
where do we get into semantics?
>
>2) If you claim he understands Chinese, ask him in his native language "What's
>the Chinese symbol for 'dog'?".  He wouldn't be able to answer.  Clearly, a
>person who "understands" two languages (his native one and Chinese) and is
>unable to translate a _single_ _word_ from one language to another has a very
>bizarre type of "understanding".
>
As I said before, a pure intelligence transplant! Why don't
we just take a Chinese brain stuff it in our Engish man's
head (make all the proper connections to his spine, etc..)
And then we shall ask him if he understands Chinese, or
what is the Chinese word for DOG?
- do you see the problem now?
>Gads.  It's the Gedankenexperiment that would not die!
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Fred Buhl, Grad Student        A proud member of the Union of
-- 
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*   AZ    -- zirdum@ccu.umanitoba.ca                            *
*     " The first hundred years are the hardest! " - W. Mizner  *
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